Faulty Theology

[JonC]

I have told you what the Bible says. You have told me what you believe the Bible says but you keep ignoring facts. You said that being dead in sin is being of the flesh and then say Adam was created only in the flesh. However, you present a problem with this view that you have yet to answer.

The problem is that Adam was not dead in sin prior to sinning. So dead in sin cannot simply mean of the flesh.

I have told you what the Bible actually says (what is written in the text of Scripture). You have told me what you believe the Bible teaches (not "what is written" but what you believe Scripture is telling you).

I have answered repeatedly. Don't be too wise for Scripture, David. You ask what Adam was before he sinned. I told you. The Bible states that Adam was "natural man", "not spiritual man", "a living soul", "flesh", and "upright".

What does the Bible NOT say? The Bible does NOT say that Adam was created spiritual and died spiritually when he ate of the fruit. YOU say that. The Bible does not. It amazes me that you cannot see this.

Try this - type out the text of Scripture and put in bold where the Bible states that Adam was created alive in the Spirit.
Then put in bold where Scripture states that Adam spiritually died.

You cannot because it is not in Scripture. It is something your theology teaches you, and it is something upon which your theology hinges. But it is not actually in the Bible (in "what is written", much less in "what is written again").

As @Martin Marprelate clearly pointed out with his method of "Scripture interpreting Scripture", the other time the Bible uses "die, die", it is VERY clear that Scripture is speaking of death as physical (the death of the body).

 

[JonC]

This is a continuation of another thread which was closed due to its length.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have told you what the Bible actually says (what is written in the text of Scripture). You have told me what you believe the Bible teaches (not "what is written" but what you believe Scripture is telling you).

I have answered repeatedly. Don't be too wise for Scripture, David. You ask what Adam was before he sinned. I told you. The Bible states that Adam was "natural man", "not spiritual man", "a living soul", "flesh", and "upright".

What does the Bible NOT say? The Bible does NOT say that Adam was created spiritual and died spiritually when he ate of the fruit. YOU say that. The Bible does not. It amazes me that you cannot see this.

Try this - type out the text of Scripture and put in bold where the Bible states that Adam was created alive in the Spirit.
Then put in bold where Scripture states that Adam spiritually died.

You cannot because it is not in Scripture. It is something your theology teaches you, and it is something upon which your theology hinges. But it is not actually in the Bible (in "what is written", much less in "what is written again").

As @Martin Marprelate clearly pointed out with his method of "Scripture interpreting Scripture", the other time the Bible uses "die, die", it is VERY clear that Scripture is speaking of death as physical (the death of the body).

I have to say that your view is not orthodox.

 

[JonC]

I have to say that your view is not orthodox.

Oddly enough, it is orthodox. It just is not orthodox to your standard (it is one of two very common views within orthodox Christianity). The majority of commentators that I have seen actually translate the passage in Genesis as "dying you shall die" rather than "you shall die a spiritual death". But within our tradition it is typically taken that Adam died spiritually upon eating the fruit.

The two major views is that:


1. Adam was created “on par” with God (spiritually alive) and when Adam ate of the fruit Adam experienced a spiritual death.

2. Adam was created “natural”, “flesh”, “upright”, “not spiritual” (the descriptions in quotes are from Scripture as well). So Adam had a human body and a human soul and a human spirit – but was not alive in the Spirit.

The benefit of the second view is that it is actually in the text of Scripture, it maintains a consistency with how sin is described throughout Scripture, it is consistent with the Hebrew religion and first century Jewish view regarding death and genesis, it is consistent with the earliest teachings post-Scripture regarding the nature of redemption in terms of death, and it does not depend on extra-biblical doctrine.

The benefit of the first view is it is more consistent with the mainstream evangelical view.

 

[Revmitchell]

Oddly enough, it is orthodox. It just is not orthodox to your standard (it is one of two very common views within orthodox Christianity). The majority of commentators that I have seen actually translate the passage in Genesis as "dying you shall die" rather than "you shall die a spiritual death". But within our tradition it is typically taken that Adam died spiritually upon eating the fruit.

The two major views is that:


1. Adam was created “on par” with God (spiritually alive) and when Adam ate of the fruit Adam experienced a spiritual death.

2. Adam was created “natural”, “flesh”, “upright”, “not spiritual” (the descriptions in quotes are from Scripture as well). So Adam had a human body and a human soul and a human spirit – but was not alive in the Spirit.

The benefit of the second view is that it is actually in the text of Scripture, it maintains a consistency with how sin is described throughout Scripture, it is consistent with the Hebrew religion and first century Jewish view regarding death and genesis, it is consistent with the earliest teachings post-Scripture regarding the nature of redemption in terms of death, and it does not depend on extra-biblical doctrine.

The benefit of the first view is it is more consistent with the mainstream evangelical view.

Whoa wait what is it that you think it is to be alive in the Spirit?

 

[MB]

Martin Marprelate said;

The relevant verses have been given before: Psalms 51:5; Psalms 58:3; Proverbs 16:4. One of us has presumed ideas, but it isn't I.

Read this carefully
Psa 51:5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.
David was made in iniquity and in sin was born this does not say David was born a sinner

Psa 58:3 The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies.
Notice David does not call them sinners. Babies have no understanding of the Law therefore they are not held accountable

Pro 16:4 All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil

This says nothing about Adam.
Babies err they can't sin because they don't understand the Law which is why Paul saaid;
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
MB

 

[JonC]

Whoa wait what is it that you think it is to be alive in the Spirit?

I believe that we "are in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in [us]" (Romans 8:9). It is the Spirit who gives life (John 6:63) and the mind set on the Spirit is life (Romans 8:6). I also believe that the Adam, the first man, became a living soul while the last Adam, Christ, became a life giving spirit; the spiritual is not first, but the natural then the spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:45-46).

I tend to define being alive in the Spirit as living by the Spirit (Galatians 5:25) and being born of imperishable seed (1 Peter 1:23). It is a joining of a person to the Lord (1 Corinthians 6:17) by God putting His Spirit in us (Ezekiel 36:27) and being led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14).

The very short answer is that I believe Christ is the life (John 1:4, 6:35) and those who are alive in the Spirit are sealed by Bod and given the Spirit in our hearts (2 Corinthians 1:22).

So to read that people believe Adam was alive in the Spirit and then experienced dying spiritually is a bit troubling because it denounces all my belief as stated above and does so with no biblical authority (thus far).

What do you believe that it is to be alive in the Spirit?

 

[MB]

Hank D said;

The Hebrew says "Dying you shall die the death"

Young's Literal Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Notice this says that Adam was dying and that he would die. It does not say he died spiritually

Romans 5:12
YLT Romans 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

All the main verbs are aorist - when Adam sinned:

sin entered the world
death passed on all
all sinned

we are not responsible for Adam's sin because we were there WITH HIM - WE OURSELVES SINNED WITH HIM.

The meaning of Romans 5:12 - When Adam sinned we were there and sinned with Him.
There is NOTHING to commend us to God not even the so called "innocence" of infancy - NOTHING.

We are born dead in Adam.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All things are establish by two or three witnesses. You have one witness this is not established.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

I believe that we "are in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in [us]" (Romans 8:9). It is the Spirit who gives life (John 6:63) and the mind set on the Spirit is life (Romans 8:6). I also believe that the Adam, the first man, became a living soul while the last Adam, Christ, became a life giving spirit; the spiritual is not first, but the natural then the spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:45-46).

I tend to define being alive in the Spirit as living by the Spirit (Galatians 5:25) and being born of imperishable seed (1 Peter 1:23). It is a joining of a person to the Lord (1 Corinthians 6:17) by God putting His Spirit in us (Ezekiel 36:27) and being led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14).

The very short answer is that I believe Christ is the life (John 1:4, 6:35) and those who are alive in the Spirit are sealed by Bod and given the Spirit in our hearts (2 Corinthians 1:22).

So to read that people believe Adam was alive in the Spirit and then experienced dying spiritually is a bit troubling because it denounces all my belief as stated above and does so with no biblical authority (thus far).

What do you believe that it is to be alive in the Spirit?

Um the ot saints were not indwelt as the church is but that does not make them spiritually dead. Cant hold them to the church standard. That is not hiw God worked with them

 

[JonC]

Um the ot saints were not indwelt as the church is but that does not make them spiritually dead. Cant hold them to the church standard. That is not hiw God worked with them

I do not believe that Old Testament saints had a different kind of life in the Spirit. Even they were dependent on Christ as they looked forward to the Promise - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I believe that death in Genesis is physical death, but it is also a banishment from God’s sanctuary (from the Garden) and the intimacy Adam once enjoyed with God. But this relationship is not what the Bible calls “alive in the Spirit”. It is a result of one being “alive in the Spirit”.

The difference can be expressed with the simple illustration that God created Adam “natural man” (and “not spiritual man”), and placed Adam in the Garden (placed Adam in God’s “sanctuary”, in His presence). The Spirit was with Adam and Adam had communion with God BUT the Spirit was not ontological to Adam (Scripture says this requires a “rebirth” or being “born again” “of the Spirit”, of “imperishable seed”).

Do you know of a passage that speaks of Adam (or anyone) dying spiritually?

 

[Revmitchell]

I do not believe that Old Testament saints had a different kind of life in the Spirit. Even they were dependent on Christ as they looked forward to the Promise - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I believe that death in Genesis is physical death, but it is also a banishment from God’s sanctuary (from the Garden) and the intimacy Adam once enjoyed with God. But this relationship is not what the Bible calls “alive in the Spirit”. It is a result of one being “alive in the Spirit”.

The difference can be expressed with the simple illustration that God created Adam “natural man” (and “not spiritual man”), and placed Adam in the Garden (placed Adam in God’s “sanctuary”, in His presence). The Spirit was with Adam and Adam had communion with God BUT the Spirit was not ontological to Adam (Scripture says this requires a “rebirth” or being “born again” “of the Spirit”, of “imperishable seed”).

Do you know of a passage that speaks of Adam (or anyone) dying spiritually?

I didnt say anything about being dependent on Christ. If course they were.

 

[JonC]

I didnt say anything about being dependent on Christ. If course they were.

I am not sure how you view Adam's Spiritual life died. Perhaps it is a difference in definition.

I do not believe spiritual life subject to death because I believe this life defined by Christ in those passages I provided.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am not sure how you view Adam's Spiritual life died. Perhaps it is a difference in definition.

I do not believe spiritual life subject to death because I believe this life defined by Christ in those passages I provided.

But we are talking about pre fall adam who was not dependent on Christ

 

[AustinC]

The thing about Adam and Eve is that they were holy as God is holy.
When they sinned, that state of holiness was lost.
What we see, however, is that their lost state was short lived. God manifested Himself in the garden and quickly, by His Sovereign will, chose to extend grace to Adam and Eve.
Like with all the elect, God chose to redeem Adam and Eve. He could have chosen to kill them instantly and start all over with a new holy race of humanity, but instead God extended His Amazing, saving, Grace.
When God says "dying you shall die", God is referring to the flesh dying, not to Adam and Eve's spirit. Their spirit is held in the gracious hands of God; redeemed unto eternity by Christ Jesus atoning sacrifice.

david, has accurately questioned how a person who had no spirit to begin with could then become spiritually dead. The answer is...that person couldn't. That person would need to have a spirit that was alive in order for that person to die spiritually.
Being made in the image of God, Adam and Eve would, like God, have a spirit. When we see them sin, we see that spirit being tainted and corrupted, but as soon as God chooses to redeem them their spirits are graciously restored to relationship with the Creator.

If JonC wants to promote the "golem" theory, so be it. It's a quirky take on Adam and Eve that little to none will hold. Jon, feel free to live on that island if you wish.

 

[InTheLight]

The thing about Adam and Eve is that they were holy as God is holy.
When they sinned, that state of holiness was lost.

This is conjecture. The Bible does not say Adam and Eve were holy. They were tempted. They sinned. God is holy. God cannot be tempted. God cannot sin.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

david, has accurately questioned how a person who had no spirit to begin with could then become spiritually dead. The answer is...that person couldn't. That person would need to have a spirit that was alive in order for that person to die spiritually.

JonC's contention is that Adam and Eve were not spiritually alive before the Fall and the idea of them suffering a spiritual death is not found in scripture. No one has refuted this with scripture. Instead, a whole lot of logical reasoning has been employed to reach these conclusions.

Being made in the image of God, Adam and Eve would, like God, have a spirit. When we see them sin, we see that spirit being tainted and corrupted, but as soon as God chooses to redeem them their spirits are graciously restored to relationship with the Creator.

Their relationship was restored with the Creator? No, they were banned from the Garden of Eden. Adam was forced to toil and work to till the land and Eve was to bear pain in childbirth.

Where does the Bible state that God redeemed A&E's spirits?

If JonC wants to promote the "golem" theory, so be it. It's a quirky take on Adam and Eve that little to none will hold. Jon, feel free to live on that island if you wish.

Your golem theory is a big strawman.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is conjecture. The Bible does not say Adam and Eve were holy. They were tempted. They sinned. God is holy. God cannot be tempted. God cannot sin.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.



JonC's contention is that Adam and Eve were not spiritually alive before the Fall and the idea of them suffering a spiritual death is not found in scripture. No one has refuted this with scripture. Instead, a whole lot of logical reasoning has been employed to reach these conclusions.



No, they were banned from the Garden of Eden. Adam was forced to toil and work to till the land and Eve was to bear pain in childbirth.



Your golem theory is a big strawman.

Yalls mistake is thinking if its not explicitly stated then it cant be. You misunderstand scripture.

Now I ask you. How do you understand being spiritually alive?

 

[AustinC]

This is conjecture. The Bible does not say Adam and Eve were holy. They were tempted. They sinned. God is holy. God cannot be tempted. God cannot sin.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.



JonC's contention is that Adam and Eve were not spiritually alive before the Fall and the idea of them suffering a spiritual death is not found in scripture. No one has refuted this with scripture. Instead, a whole lot of logical reasoning has been employed to reach these conclusions.



No, they were banned from the Garden of Eden. Adam was forced to toil and work to till the land and Eve was to bear pain in childbirth.



Your golem theory is a big strawman.

When God finished his creation He said "It is good." Would God call anything that is not holy..."good?"

Adam and Eve are made in the image of God. Is God Spirit? Would God create a non-spiritual being and say it was made in the image of God?

You and Jon are both arguing from silence by claiming that since you don't see the term spirit discussed in Genesis 1-3, Adam and Eve could not therefore have a spirit.

The Hebrew definition of a golem fits with Jon's view.

 

[InTheLight]

Yalls mistake is thinking if its not explicitly stated then it cant be. You misunderstand scripture.

Now I ask you. How do you understand being spiritually alive?

Spiritually alive means a person has been justified by God, their sins forgiven, and has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

 

[MB]

The thing about Adam and Eve is that they were holy as God is holy.
When they sinned, that state of holiness was lost.
What we see, however, is that their lost state was short lived. God manifested Himself in the garden and quickly, by His Sovereign will, chose to extend grace to Adam and Eve.
Like with all the elect, God chose to redeem Adam and Eve. He could have chosen to kill them instantly and start all over with a new holy race of humanity, but instead God extended His Amazing, saving, Grace.
When God says "dying you shall die", God is referring to the flesh dying, not to Adam and Eve's spirit. Their spirit is held in the gracious hands of God; redeemed unto eternity by Christ Jesus atoning sacrifice.

david, has accurately questioned how a person who had no spirit to begin with could then become spiritually dead. The answer is...that person couldn't. That person would need to have a spirit that was alive in order for that person to die spiritually.
Being made in the image of God, Adam and Eve would, like God, have a spirit. When we see them sin, we see that spirit being tainted and corrupted, but as soon as God chooses to redeem them their spirits are graciously restored to relationship with the Creator.

If JonC wants to promote the "golem" theory, so be it. It's a quirky take on Adam and Eve that little to none will hold. Jon, feel free to live on that island if you wish.

This whole post shows you do not believe in scripture as it is. You insist on your interpretation as truth and your interpretation goes directly against scripture by your adding to and taking away. You certainly haven't proven anyone wrong but your own post proves you wrong.
MB

 

[InTheLight]

When God finished his creation He said "It is good." Would God call anything that is not holy..."good?"

Well, he called his creation "very good". He called land animals and sea creatures good (Gen. 1:21, Gen. 1:25) Elephants are not holy. Whales are not holy.

Adam and Eve are made in the image of God. Is God Spirit? Would God create a non-spiritual being and say it was made in the image of God?

Constructing hypothetical questions is not an argument.

You and Jon are both arguing from silence by claiming that since you don't see the term spirit discussed in Genesis 1-3, Adam and Eve could not therefore have a spirit.

Another strawman.