George Antonios
Well-Known Member
So if they were "not spiritually alive" - what were they?
I'm still trying to understand JonC's take to this day.
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Faulty Theology
- Thread starter JonC
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I'm still trying to understand JonC's take to this day.
Scripture please
I mean I'm being told I'm wrong so I'm asking you to defend your position
Yea you and me both
Psalm 119:9
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Wait a minute, I get your point, and I agree that little has been offered in the form of scriptures, but Christ the Lord himself did not always answer by "here's the verse which says that". For example, recall his answer about the resurrection. He did not provide a verse saying "there is a resurrection" but reasoned spiritually out of a seemingly unrelated situation:
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
So I agree with @AustinC's reasoning that God who is a Spirit, and created us in his image and likeness, created us as spiritual beings. Let me take that a little further. Part of the the reason that angels are called sons of God is that they are spirits (Ps.104:4) and God is the Father of spirits (Heb.12:9). Well, before the fall, which is the state we are discussing, Adam was a the son of God (Lk.3:38) so that God was his Father. Therefore, Adam must have had a spirit, especially since God is the God of the spirits of all flesh (Nu.16:22, 27:16) and Adam was flesh! And Adam's spirit must have been alive since God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.
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Uh no it doesnt
Here we go... I never said you were wrong. I've defended my position.
What is the Hebrew definition of the word "holy" as it is used in scripture?
Seems like he is mixing philosophy and speculation himself!
Since the thread has suddenly died and then been resurrected, perhaps I may ask the questions that I asked earlier:
If God is not the author of evil, how come He creates a man dead in trespasses and sins?
How come the Scripture says that man was created upright if Adam was just a regular sinner from birth ([URL='https://www.baptistboard.com/bible/psalms/51:5/']Psalms 51:5)?
How come the 'good' creation became 'very good' after the creation of man if the man created was a sinner?
How come death entered the world through sin (Romans 5:12) if Adam was going to die whether he sinned or not?[/URL]
While I'm at it, why are threads being closed without the six hour notice that is indicated here?Thread Closures
For those of us who are not permanently glued to this board it is very irritating.
If God is not the author of evil, how come He creates a man dead in trespasses and sins?
How come the Scripture says that man was created upright if Adam was just a regular sinner from birth ([URL='https://www.baptistboard.com/bible/psalms/51:5/']Psalms 51:5)?
How come the 'good' creation became 'very good' after the creation of man if the man created was a sinner?
How come death entered the world through sin (Romans 5:12) if Adam was going to die whether he sinned or not?[/URL]
While I'm at it, why are threads being closed without the six hour notice that is indicated here?Thread Closures
For those of us who are not permanently glued to this board it is very irritating.
My argument with AustinC is his contention that Adam and Eve were holy. You won't find that in scripture.
AustinC claimed that JonC said A&E did not have spirits. I don't think JonC ever said they were without spirits. I'm certainly not saying they lacked spirits.
The question is: "Were Adam and Eve spiritually alive before the Fall?"
There is no direct scripture that says so. People that are affirming they were spiritually alive before the Fall are using reason and logic to get to that deduction.
I'm not certain they were spiritually alive. I haven't fully formed an opinion on it, which is why these debates are useful.
If they were spiritually alive before the Fall, then they "spiritually died", that seems problematic to adherents of the "P" in TULIP.
Show us who has claimed this. The claim is that A&E were not spiritually alive before the Fall.
How come you are creating strawmen?
(Why do Calvinists CONSTANTLY do this?)
There you go again... No one says Adam and Eve were created sinners.
Scripture says after it was all done God looked upon everything He had made and called it very good.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
I don't believe anyone said Adam was going to die if he remained sinless. I believe JonC presented it as a possibility, though not a certainty. The distinction was made that if he ate of the fruit, he would "surely die". He would face certain death if he ate of it.
Being spiritually alive simply means being in a right relationship with God. Isaiah 52:9 says we are separated (spiritually dead) because of sin.
We are either dead or alive. There is no other stated. The word dead means to be separated. Once we are justified by Christ's righteousness we are made spiritually alive (in right relationship).
Adam and eve were in a right relationship with God pre fall as evidenced by there intimate walking with Him in the garden (Genesis 3). In other words spiritually alive.
We are either dead or alive. There is no other stated. The word dead means to be separated. Once we are justified by Christ's righteousness we are made spiritually alive (in right relationship).
Adam and eve were in a right relationship with God pre fall as evidenced by there intimate walking with Him in the garden (Genesis 3). In other words spiritually alive.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Careful, was Christ tempted?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And what about pre fall?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
So when we are told to be holy does that mean we can be worthy of worship? I think your definition is off.
Yes, that is the question.
"Were A&E spiritually alive before the Fall?"
I don't know. Certainly there is nothing that directly states they were.
Holy means...to be set apart.
We are told to be holy in our conduct. 1 Peter 1:15
No, we cannot be worthy of worship.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
If their sin caused them to be dead, an active state, and clearly they were still physically alive, that only leaves one option. It was a spiritual death.
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