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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020.

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  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    This thread will be closed no sooner than 5 PM,EDT; 2 pm PDT) Monday 13 Apr..
     
    #161 Salty, Apr 13, 2020
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  2. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    I think your friend believes that "he" created the church and that "he" will not willingly give up the little kingdom that "he" created for himself. Therefore, "he" has picked people who will agree with "him" so that "he" can rule his little kingdom. "He" will not abide by anyone who comes in and threatens "his" kingdom. Therefore, "he" kicked out people even though those people did not fit into the Matthew 18 model for church discipline.

    I think, based upon your portrayal, that your friend is a control freak who refuses to give up "his" kingdom...even if God comes in to correct him.
     
    #162 Particular, Apr 13, 2020
  3. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    JonC, to be honest, your writing often comes across as promoting relativism and personal opinion rather than promoting objective truth. As is obvious in your response here, I don't think you intend it to be understood that way, but it still comes across as promoting relativism.

    Just an observation.
     
    #163 Particular, Apr 13, 2020
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  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Awesome job of mind reading. And from a remote distance. No crystal balls. No other aids. Impressive!
     
    #164 InTheLight, Apr 13, 2020
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It could, but I suspect it is because lines are getting crossed. To clarify (hopefully)

    I believe that truth is objective and does not change. Scripture is objective and absolute because it is God's revelation of Himself to us.

    BUT I also believe that our understanding of Scripture is somewhat subjective in that we see now through a glass dimly, we know in part. Our understanding is not without the human element.

    So you and I could read the same objective Scripture and come out with two different interpretations. This does not mean both are correct (neither could be correct). Scripture remains the standard, but we have to teach what we believe (even if it is "as through a glass dimly") recognizing where Scripture ends and our understanding begins.

    When it comes to Calvinism vs Arminianism, neither of those theologies are independent of human understanding and human philosophy (obviously). Both cannot be true. Both may be true to a great extent and false to a great extent. But both look to the same objective truth (Scripture) and walk away with a human understanding.

    How can this happen if both are Christian and both parties indwelt by the Spirit? It can happen because both deal with ideas that are not "spiritual", not necessarily contained in the text of Scripture, and both expound on truths to develop doctrine (incorporating human reasoning).
     
    #165 JonC, Apr 13, 2020
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  6. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    To be honest, I dont dont really care what you think about him.
     
    #166 Reynolds, Apr 13, 2020
  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Only to someone who reads his posts through the lens of Calvinism being absolute truth and all else being error.
     
    #167 Reynolds, Apr 13, 2020
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  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but your burden of proof is that some come that were not chosen.
     
    #168 Reformed1689, Apr 14, 2020
  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Because it is commanded.
     
    #169 Reformed1689, Apr 14, 2020
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" Romans 10:14-15 (NASB)
     
    #170 JonC, Apr 14, 2020
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It all comes down to this in regards to salvation proper, does God save alone, or does He choose to have humans co assistant Him ?
     
    #171 Yeshua1, Apr 14, 2020
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The entire system of Calvinism in regards to Sotierology proper is based upon the the Truine God, and also rests directly upon the Cross and Person of Christ and scriptures, not man made philosophy!
     
    #172 Yeshua1, Apr 14, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They reject the Calvinist understanding of the passages, they are saved just as we were by the Grace of God, just misunderstood it!
     
    #173 Yeshua1, Apr 14, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, as we are all saved by same method, its jsut that Calvinism explains that salvation process much better then non cals systems do, as per scriptures!
     
    #174 Yeshua1, Apr 14, 2020
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They are rejecting what we would understanding as being just how scriptures describe salvation process....
     
    #175 Yeshua1, Apr 14, 2020
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Your very statement that there is no justice in scriptures as we would see it though is highly subjective, as you seem to think we got it not from scriptureat all but by just human philosophy?
     
    #176 Yeshua1, Apr 14, 2020
  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    So, why bother to obey commands if one is already predestinated & unable to change his/her "fate" ?

    I obey God's commands because I chose to come to Jesus in repentance, belief, & submission, & He chose to accept me. Before that, I was predestinated to hell cuz I had heard of Jesus, but hadn't come to Him.

    Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

    Who does "anyone" leave out ?
     
    #177 robycop3, Apr 14, 2020
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    One of them is ME !

    Jesus was there; I came to Him on my own. He didn't call me as He did Moses, Jeremiah, or Paul.
     
    #178 robycop3, Apr 14, 2020
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    The ones who don't have ears to hear.
     
    #179 Reformed1689, Apr 14, 2020
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's not what happened.
     
    #180 Reformed1689, Apr 14, 2020
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