The High Priestly Prayer

[Salty]

This thread will be closed no sooner than 5 PM,EDT; 2 pm PDT) Monday 13 Apr..

 

[Particular]

So, you think the Calvinists he kicked out were kicked out for "demanding the Supremacy of Christ in all things."? If so, that is about the most egotistical thing I have heard. If you dont teach Calvinism you are rejecting the supremacy of Christ? Yall wonder why non-cals are getting annoyed and defensive with you. If we take what you say literally, you are accusing us of being non- Christian or at least second class Christians.

I think your friend believes that "he" created the church and that "he" will not willingly give up the little kingdom that "he" created for himself. Therefore, "he" has picked people who will agree with "him" so that "he" can rule his little kingdom. "He" will not abide by anyone who comes in and threatens "his" kingdom. Therefore, "he" kicked out people even though those people did not fit into the Matthew 18 model for church discipline.

I think, based upon your portrayal, that your friend is a control freak who refuses to give up "his" kingdom...even if God comes in to correct him.

 

[Particular]

Odd as you seem to be the only member to have misunderstood what I posted.

I posted "Scripture is absolute, concrete, infallible, and objective truth"; "I am saying Scripture is complete and perfect. It is God's revelation of Himself to man. We develop doctrine from Scripture and test that developed doctrine against the standard of Scripture."; "For me, the absolute truth of Scripture (what is written) is non-negotiable. To do otherwise just seems to elevate man over God."

You read those words and find it unclear, interpreting it to say that "in [my] world there is no right or wrong".

What I actually posted is EXACTLY the opposite of your interpretation of what I wrote.

JonC, to be honest, your writing often comes across as promoting relativism and personal opinion rather than promoting objective truth. As is obvious in your response here, I don't think you intend it to be understood that way, but it still comes across as promoting relativism.

Just an observation.

 

[InTheLight]

I think your friend believes that "he" created the church and that "he" will not willingly give up the little kingdom that "he" created for himself. Therefore, "he" has picked people who will agree with "him" so that "he" can rule his little kingdom. "He" will not abide by anyone who comes in and threatens "his" kingdom. Therefore, "he" kicked out people even though those people did not fit into the Matthew 18 model for church discipline.

I think, based upon your portrayal, that your friend is a control freak who refuses to give up "his" kingdom...even if God comes in to correct him.

Awesome job of mind reading. And from a remote distance. No crystal balls. No other aids. Impressive!

 

[JonC]

JonC, to be honest, your writing often comes across as promoting relativism and personal opinion rather than promoting objective truth. As is obvious in your response here, I don't think you intend it to be understood that way, but it still comes across as promoting relativism.

Just an observation.

It could, but I suspect it is because lines are getting crossed. To clarify (hopefully)

I believe that truth is objective and does not change. Scripture is objective and absolute because it is God's revelation of Himself to us.

BUT I also believe that our understanding of Scripture is somewhat subjective in that we see now through a glass dimly, we know in part. Our understanding is not without the human element.

So you and I could read the same objective Scripture and come out with two different interpretations. This does not mean both are correct (neither could be correct). Scripture remains the standard, but we have to teach what we believe (even if it is "as through a glass dimly") recognizing where Scripture ends and our understanding begins.

When it comes to Calvinism vs Arminianism, neither of those theologies are independent of human understanding and human philosophy (obviously). Both cannot be true. Both may be true to a great extent and false to a great extent. But both look to the same objective truth (Scripture) and walk away with a human understanding.

How can this happen if both are Christian and both parties indwelt by the Spirit? It can happen because both deal with ideas that are not "spiritual", not necessarily contained in the text of Scripture, and both expound on truths to develop doctrine (incorporating human reasoning).

 

[Reynolds]

I think your friend believes that "he" created the church and that "he" will not willingly give up the little kingdom that "he" created for himself. Therefore, "he" has picked people who will agree with "him" so that "he" can rule his little kingdom. "He" will not abide by anyone who comes in and threatens "his" kingdom. Therefore, "he" kicked out people even though those people did not fit into the Matthew 18 model for church discipline.

I think, based upon your portrayal, that your friend is a control freak who refuses to give up "his" kingdom...even if God comes in to correct him.

To be honest, I dont dont really care what you think about him.

 

[Reynolds]

JonC, to be honest, your writing often comes across as promoting relativism and personal opinion rather than promoting objective truth. As is obvious in your response here, I don't think you intend it to be understood that way, but it still comes across as promoting relativism.

Just an observation.

Only to someone who reads his posts through the lens of Calvinism being absolute truth and all else being error.

 

[Reformed1689]

Sure. Moses. Jeremiah, & Paul, among others were pre-chosen by God for special service to Him. Remember, He made eacha them "an offer he coiuldn't refuse".

Yeah, but your burden of proof is that some come that were not chosen.

 

[Reformed1689]

Again, if everyone were predestinated, unable to change their status no matter what, why have Bibles, preachers, or worship at all ?

Because it is commanded.

 

[JonC]

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" Romans 10:14-15 (NASB)

 

[Yeshua1]

It could, but I suspect it is because lines are getting crossed. To clarify (hopefully)

I believe that truth is objective and does not change. Scripture is objective and absolute because it is God's revelation of Himself to us.

BUT I also believe that our understanding of Scripture is somewhat subjective in that we see now through a glass dimly, we know in part. Our understanding is not without the human element.

So you and I could read the same objective Scripture and come out with two different interpretations. This does not mean both are correct (neither could be correct). Scripture remains the standard, but we have to teach what we believe (even if it is "as through a glass dimly") recognizing where Scripture ends and our understanding begins.

When it comes to Calvinism vs Arminianism, neither of those theologies are independent of human understanding and human philosophy (obviously). Both cannot be true. Both may be true to a great extent and false to a great extent. But both look to the same objective truth (Scripture) and walk away with a human understanding.

How can this happen if both are Christian and both parties indwelt by the Spirit? It can happen because both deal with ideas that are not "spiritual", not necessarily contained in the text of Scripture, and both expound on truths to develop doctrine (incorporating human reasoning).

It all comes down to this in regards to salvation proper, does God save alone, or does He choose to have humans co assistant Him ?

 

[Yeshua1]

No. Scripture centers on Christ. He (Christ) is God's fullest revelation of Himself to man.

Calvinism is centered on responding to the Five Articles of the Remonstrance.

Arminius stumbled over the philosophy of the "problem" of evil and predestination.

The Five Points of Calvinism were rebuttals of the Five Articles.

It is philosophy (perhaps Christian philosophy but philosophy nonetheless).

Scripture never asks "for whom did Christ die" in the scope of limited atonement (although dying for the sheep is affirmed). Scripture never deals with the "elect" except from the standpoint of those already "in Christ".

The entire system of Calvinism in regards to Sotierology proper is based upon the the Truine God, and also rests directly upon the Cross and Person of Christ and scriptures, not man made philosophy!

 

[Yeshua1]

Lets find out. I only know of one Arminian here and a a couple of non- Calvinists. Let's ask them.

@Reynolds, holding Classical Arminianism do you reject John 1, James 1, and Titus 3?

@Revmitchell, rejecting Calvinism, do you also reject John 1, James 1, and Titus 3?

Or do you reject the Calvinistic interpretation of those passages along with the Calvinistic philosophies associated with that position?

I ask because a member here has claimed that you do not reject their interpretation but Scripture itself.

They reject the Calvinist understanding of the passages, they are saved just as we were by the Grace of God, just misunderstood it!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are right... We are wandering off topic.

Are you claiming that only Calvinists are saved, that those who reject Calvinism are the ones to whom Christ referred as never known?

No, as we are all saved by same method, its jsut that Calvinism explains that salvation process much better then non cals systems do, as per scriptures!

 

[Yeshua1]

Have you found that Calvinists confuse their own theology with Scripture itself and are unable to grasp where Scripture ends and their understanding begins?

I ask because Dave is not the first Calvinist to accuse anyone who disagrees with him as rejecting Scripture.

They are rejecting what we would understanding as being just how scriptures describe salvation process....

 

[Yeshua1]

My point is that Scripture is not relative. Scripture is not subjective. Scripture is the absolute and objective standard. And Scripture says that we see now as though through a glass dimly. And Scripture warns against leaning on our own understanding.

Here is an example -

1 Timothy 3:2

Some say to be a deacon one must be married.
Some say one must have only one current wife.
Some say one can never have been divorced.

Which one is truly saved with the indwelling of the Spirit?

You cannot truly answer objectively. But there is a correct answer.

The question is whether or not the answer is a "spiritual truth".

You assume a Calvinistic idea of justice. But there are no passages affirming that presupposition. You could claim God gave you this conviction via divine intervention ad all others are wrong. Or you could recognize the reasoning and defend your conclusions.

Arguments fail because people (on both sides) ignore their reasoning or think it is a special and supernatural gift of discernment to see what is not actually there. In truth, Calvinism and Arminianism are far from "spiritual truths". They are both understandings of Scripture and both in debt to human reasoning.

Your very statement that there is no justice in scriptures as we would see it though is highly subjective, as you seem to think we got it not from scriptureat all but by just human philosophy?

 

[robycop3]

Because it is commanded.

So, why bother to obey commands if one is already predestinated & unable to change his/her "fate" ?

I obey God's commands because I chose to come to Jesus in repentance, belief, & submission, & He chose to accept me. Before that, I was predestinated to hell cuz I had heard of Jesus, but hadn't come to Him.

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Who does "anyone" leave out ?

 

[robycop3]

Yeah, but your burden of proof is that some come that were not chosen.

One of them is ME !

Jesus was there; I came to Him on my own. He didn't call me as He did Moses, Jeremiah, or Paul.

 

[Reformed1689]

So, why bother to obey commands if one is already predestinated & unable to change his/her "fate" ?

I obey God's commands because I chose to come to Jesus in repentance, belief, & submission, & He chose to accept me. Before that, I was predestinated to hell cuz I had heard of Jesus, but hadn't come to Him.

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Who does "anyone" leave out ?

The ones who don't have ears to hear.

 

[Reformed1689]

One of them is ME !

Jesus was there; I came to Him on my own. He didn't call me as He did Moses, Jeremiah, or Paul.

Yeah, that's not what happened.