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Featured Assurance of Salvation

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Apr 25, 2020.

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  1. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    Trusting the works of the law to be justified or sanctified is flesh (Galatians3:1-5).

    It is law which gives life to the power called sin (Romans 7:8,9).
     
    #21 Steven_15, Apr 30, 2020
  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Calvin taught that you could have assurance that you are among the elect — though he also admitted that one could also have a counterfeit "faith"

    "Hence, those whom God has adopted as sons, he is said to have elected, not in themselves, but in Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:4); because he could love them only in him, and only as being previously made partakers with him, honor them with the inheritance of his kingdom. But if we are elected in him, we cannot find the certainty of our election in ourselves; and not even in God the Father, if we look at him apart from the Son. Christ, then, is the mirror in which we ought, and in which, without deception, we may contemplate our election. For since it is into his body that the Father has decreed to ingraft those whom from eternity he wished to be his, that he may regard as sons all whom he acknowledges to be his members, if we are in communion with Christ, we have proof sufficiently clear and strong that we are written in the Book of Life."

    Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3.24.5, 1845 translation by Henry Beveridge
     
    #22 rsr, May 1, 2020
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  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvin would be stating what Apostle John did to us in his own wording there!
     
    #23 Yeshua1, May 1, 2020
  4. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    What constitutes being in communion with Christ. Seems the works of the moral law is sneaked in!
     
    #24 Steven_15, May 2, 2020
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    None save for Jesus EVER have been sinless perfection!
     
    #25 Yeshua1, May 2, 2020
  6. Drifter

    Drifter New Member

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    Someone has probably addressed this before, but in a world where counterfeit faith exists, surely this raises some questions about the significance of total assurance in real life (TM). Presumably those under counterfeit faith don't know. I suppose if they did know, they wouldn't have it. So take someone who appears sure of her total assurance but is really under counterfeit faith. One day, she stops believing in TULIP. Then she stops believing in God. Then she starts to believe in God again. Then she becomes a Lutheran. Finally, she comes to believe in TULIP again. Can she be totally sure of her total assurance now?
     
    #26 Drifter, May 2, 2020
  7. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    If you aren't sinless as per the moral law, don't accuse others of violating the moral law either.
     
    #27 Steven_15, May 2, 2020
  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Well, you've certainly stacked the deck. Let's play this game: She is a Free Will Baptist and has assurance, but is really under counterfeit faith. One day, she stops believing in Arminianism. She stops believing in God. Then she starts believing in God again. Then she becomes a Southern Baptist and adheres to what is today bandied about as a "traditional" Southern Baptist, essentially Arminianism (at best) with a dollop of eternal security. Finally, she comes to believe in Arminianism again. Can she be totally assured of salvation?

    Let's put it this way. There are some things that I have absolute confidence in. The sun will rise in the east tomorrow. The sky is blue. Water is wet. If I plant a tomato, I will not reap watermelons. If I put water in my gas tank, the engine will not run.

    My assurance of salvation, alas, is not like that. I have confidence that "while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He it is who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds."

    Faith is the substance of that which is hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. If you want more than that, you've picked the wrong religion.
     
    #28 rsr, May 3, 2020
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  9. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    What is counterfeit faith?
     
    #29 Steven_15, May 3, 2020
  10. Drifter

    Drifter New Member

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    Right, as you say, we’re not talking about something that’s unheard of. Apostasy happens every single day and may occur multiple times in one lifetime.

    The substance of my post deals with the practical value (if any) of Calvinist total assurance. At any given moment, the elect, believing man can, in theory, know that he is elect. But, the reprobate, believing woman can’t know that she’s not among the elect no matter what she believes at the time. Whether that’s the ultimate takedown gotcha argument against Calvinism I don’t know. But I don’t need to rig any decks, defend or even believe in Arminianism, Traditionalism or any other system to poke at a sore spot in Calvinist assurance.

    I understand that it is an explanation for apostasy.
     
    #30 Drifter, May 3, 2020
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are a number of texts where the saint is secure. The whole reason for the believer:s security is that the new covenant is the covenant that God Himself keeps.
     
    #31 37818, May 3, 2020
  12. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    So you mean to say assurance of salvation is never given by God?
     
    #32 Steven_15, May 4, 2020
  13. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean? How do they differ in this regard?
     
    #33 George Antonios, May 4, 2020
  14. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Most of the posts veered off into eternal security (a different topic than assurance of salvation) and some were talking past each other about perfection.
    I need some Calvinists here to tell me if my understanding in the OP is correct. I have so far only gotten one clear answer.
     
    #34 George Antonios, May 4, 2020
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I do not see the distictiom between assurance of salvation and eternal security. Without an eternal security there can be no assurance of salvation.
     
    #35 37818, May 4, 2020
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  16. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Augustine wrote:

    But, moreover, that such things as these are so spoken to saints who will persevere, as if it were reckoned uncertain whether they will persevere, is a reason that they ought not otherwise to hear these things, since it is well for them “not to be high-minded, but to fear." For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden; since here we have to beware so much of pride, that even so great an apostle was buffetted by a messenger of Satan, lest he should be lifted up. Hence it was said to the apostles, “If ye abide in me;” and this He said who knew for a certainty that they would abide; and through the prophet, “If ye shall be willing, and will hear me,” although He knew in whom He would work to will also. And many similar things are said.
     
    #36 rsr, May 4, 2020
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  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and you are included in ALL!
     
    #37 Yeshua1, May 4, 2020
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those who remain steadfast to Jesus as their Lord and Savior until they did confirm that they are elected by God, but remember that it does not mean never sins, nor cannot sin for a season, bu t that they will not stay always in that sinning state, as they msut at some time repent and return to God!
    I do not see someone trusting in Jesus as their Lord in a saving sense having in the end a 'counterfit faith"
     
    #38 Yeshua1, May 4, 2020
  19. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    Without assurance, security is meaningless in a person's christian life!
     
    #39 Steven_15, May 4, 2020
  20. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    What do you mean by repenting and returning to God? After repenting, you are not returning to "sinlessness" but again to the same old "not sinless" state. But you are lying by saying you have returned to God!
     
    #40 Steven_15, May 4, 2020
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