Assurance of Salvation

[Steven_15]

No, its due to still having our flesh, sin nature in this life!

Trusting the works of the law to be justified or sanctified is flesh (Galatians3:1-5).

It is law which gives life to the power called sin (Romans 7:8,9).

 

[rsr]

How was Calvin any different?

Calvin taught that you could have assurance that you are among the elect — though he also admitted that one could also have a counterfeit "faith"

"Hence, those whom God has adopted as sons, he is said to have elected, not in themselves, but in Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:4); because he could love them only in him, and only as being previously made partakers with him, honor them with the inheritance of his kingdom. But if we are elected in him, we cannot find the certainty of our election in ourselves; and not even in God the Father, if we look at him apart from the Son. Christ, then, is the mirror in which we ought, and in which, without deception, we may contemplate our election. For since it is into his body that the Father has decreed to ingraft those whom from eternity he wished to be his, that he may regard as sons all whom he acknowledges to be his members, if we are in communion with Christ, we have proof sufficiently clear and strong that we are written in the Book of Life."

Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3.24.5, 1845 translation by Henry Beveridge

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvin taught that you could have assurance that you are among the elect — though he also admitted that one could also have a counterfeit "faith"

"Hence, those whom God has adopted as sons, he is said to have elected, not in themselves, but in Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:4); because he could love them only in him, and only as being previously made partakers with him, honor them with the inheritance of his kingdom. But if we are elected in him, we cannot find the certainty of our election in ourselves; and not even in God the Father, if we look at him apart from the Son. Christ, then, is the mirror in which we ought, and in which, without deception, we may contemplate our election. For since it is into his body that the Father has decreed to ingraft those whom from eternity he wished to be his, that he may regard as sons all whom he acknowledges to be his members, if we are in communion with Christ, we have proof sufficiently clear and strong that we are written in the Book of Life."

Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3.24.5, 1845 translation by Henry Beveridge

Calvin would be stating what Apostle John did to us in his own wording there!

 

[Steven_15]

Calvin taught that you could have assurance that you are among the elect — though he also admitted that one could also have a counterfeit "faith"

"Hence, those whom God has adopted as sons, he is said to have elected, not in themselves, but in Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:4); because he could love them only in him, and only as being previously made partakers with him, honor them with the inheritance of his kingdom. But if we are elected in him, we cannot find the certainty of our election in ourselves; and not even in God the Father, if we look at him apart from the Son. Christ, then, is the mirror in which we ought, and in which, without deception, we may contemplate our election. For since it is into his body that the Father has decreed to ingraft those whom from eternity he wished to be his, that he may regard as sons all whom he acknowledges to be his members, if we are in communion with Christ, we have proof sufficiently clear and strong that we are written in the Book of Life."

Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3.24.5, 1845 translation by Henry Beveridge

What constitutes being in communion with Christ. Seems the works of the moral law is sneaked in!

 

[Yeshua1]

Trusting the works of the law to be justified or sanctified is flesh (Galatians3:1-5).

It is law which gives life to the power called sin (Romans 7:8,9).

None save for Jesus EVER have been sinless perfection!

 

[Drifter]

Calvin taught that you could have assurance that you are among the elect — though he also admitted that one could also have a counterfeit "faith"

Someone has probably addressed this before, but in a world where counterfeit faith exists, surely this raises some questions about the significance of total assurance in real life (TM). Presumably those under counterfeit faith don't know. I suppose if they did know, they wouldn't have it. So take someone who appears sure of her total assurance but is really under counterfeit faith. One day, she stops believing in TULIP. Then she stops believing in God. Then she starts to believe in God again. Then she becomes a Lutheran. Finally, she comes to believe in TULIP again. Can she be totally sure of her total assurance now?

 

[Steven_15]

None save for Jesus EVER have been sinless perfection!

If you aren't sinless as per the moral law, don't accuse others of violating the moral law either.

 

[rsr]

So take someone who appears sure of her total assurance but is really under counterfeit faith. One day, she stops believing in TULIP. Then she stops believing in God. Then she starts to believe in God again. Then she becomes a Lutheran. Finally, she comes to believe in TULIP again. Can she be totally sure of her total assurance now?

Well, you've certainly stacked the deck. Let's play this game: She is a Free Will Baptist and has assurance, but is really under counterfeit faith. One day, she stops believing in Arminianism. She stops believing in God. Then she starts believing in God again. Then she becomes a Southern Baptist and adheres to what is today bandied about as a "traditional" Southern Baptist, essentially Arminianism (at best) with a dollop of eternal security. Finally, she comes to believe in Arminianism again. Can she be totally assured of salvation?

Let's put it this way. There are some things that I have absolute confidence in. The sun will rise in the east tomorrow. The sky is blue. Water is wet. If I plant a tomato, I will not reap watermelons. If I put water in my gas tank, the engine will not run.

My assurance of salvation, alas, is not like that. I have confidence that "while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He it is who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds."

Faith is the substance of that which is hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. If you want more than that, you've picked the wrong religion.

 

[Steven_15]

Someone has probably addressed this before, but in a world where counterfeit faith exists, surely this raises some questions about the significance of total assurance in real life (TM). Presumably those under counterfeit faith don't know. I suppose if they did know, they wouldn't have it. So take someone who appears sure of her total assurance but is really under counterfeit faith. One day, she stops believing in TULIP. Then she stops believing in God. Then she starts to believe in God again. Then she becomes a Lutheran. Finally, she comes to believe in TULIP again. Can she be totally sure of her total assurance now?

What is counterfeit faith?

 

[Drifter]

Let's put it this way. There are some things that I have absolute confidence in. The sun will rise in the east tomorrow. The sky is blue. Water is wet. If I plant a tomato, I will not reap watermelons. If I put water in my gas tank, the engine will not run.

Right, as you say, we’re not talking about something that’s unheard of. Apostasy happens every single day and may occur multiple times in one lifetime.

My assurance of salvation, alas, is not like that. I have confidence that "while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He it is who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds."

Faith is the substance of that which is hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. If you want more than that, you've picked the wrong religion.

The substance of my post deals with the practical value (if any) of Calvinist total assurance. At any given moment, the elect, believing man can, in theory, know that he is elect. But, the reprobate, believing woman can’t know that she’s not among the elect no matter what she believes at the time. Whether that’s the ultimate takedown gotcha argument against Calvinism I don’t know. But I don’t need to rig any decks, defend or even believe in Arminianism, Traditionalism or any other system to poke at a sore spot in Calvinist assurance.

What is counterfeit faith?

I understand that it is an explanation for apostasy.

 

[37818]

This is how I understand the Perseverance of the elect in the TULIP.

If I am one of the elect, then I will persevere [by the grace of God, not of my own power] in a life of holiness, never ending up in unrepentant sin but ever confessing my sins and seeking to walk with God, until the time of my death.
But I haven't reached the time of my death yet, so I still have the potential, if I am not in fact of the elect but only think I am, of ending up in unrepentant sin. If I do end up in such a state and die, then I find out, finally, that I wasn't one of the elect to begin with, which is why I did not persevere.

Therefore, even though I think I'm one of the elect based on the fact that I believe the gospel and seek to please God and to strive against sin and confess it, I can never be 100% sure that I am an elect, until I die in a state of perseverance.

Therefore in Calvinism, I can never have 100% assurance of salvation [I didn't say "eternal security", I said "assurance of salvation"].

Is my understanding correct? If not, please explain why not. Thanks

There are a number of texts where the saint is secure. The whole reason for the believer:s security is that the new covenant is the covenant that God Himself keeps.

 

[Steven_15]

Right, as you say, we’re not talking about something that’s unheard of. Apostasy happens every single day and may occur multiple times in one lifetime.



The substance of my post deals with the practical value (if any) of Calvinist total assurance. At any given moment, the elect, believing man can, in theory, know that he is elect. But, the reprobate, believing woman can’t know that she’s not among the elect no matter what she believes at the time. Whether that’s the ultimate takedown gotcha argument against Calvinism I don’t know. But I don’t need to rig any decks, defend or even believe in Arminianism, Traditionalism or any other system to poke at a sore spot in Calvinist assurance.


I understand that it is an explanation for apostasy.

So you mean to say assurance of salvation is never given by God?

 

[George Antonios]

I am in the minority, but I think Augustine was closer to the truth than Calvin, so I think you've got it about right.

What do you mean? How do they differ in this regard?

 

[George Antonios]

Most of the posts veered off into eternal security (a different topic than assurance of salvation) and some were talking past each other about perfection.
I need some Calvinists here to tell me if my understanding in the OP is correct. I have so far only gotten one clear answer.

 

[37818]

Most of the posts veered off into eternal security (a different topic than assurance of salvation) . . .

I do not see the distictiom between assurance of salvation and eternal security. Without an eternal security there can be no assurance of salvation.

 

[rsr]

What do you mean? How do they differ in this regard?

Augustine wrote:

But, moreover, that such things as these are so spoken to saints who will persevere, as if it were reckoned uncertain whether they will persevere, is a reason that they ought not otherwise to hear these things, since it is well for them “not to be high-minded, but to fear." For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden; since here we have to beware so much of pride, that even so great an apostle was buffetted by a messenger of Satan, lest he should be lifted up. Hence it was said to the apostles, “If ye abide in me;” and this He said who knew for a certainty that they would abide; and through the prophet, “If ye shall be willing, and will hear me,” although He knew in whom He would work to will also. And many similar things are said.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you aren't sinless as per the moral law, don't accuse others of violating the moral law either.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and you are included in ALL!

 

[Yeshua1]

Most of the posts veered off into eternal security (a different topic than assurance of salvation) and some were talking past each other about perfection.
I need some Calvinists here to tell me if my understanding in the OP is correct. I have so far only gotten one clear answer.

Those who remain steadfast to Jesus as their Lord and Savior until they did confirm that they are elected by God, but remember that it does not mean never sins, nor cannot sin for a season, bu t that they will not stay always in that sinning state, as they msut at some time repent and return to God!
I do not see someone trusting in Jesus as their Lord in a saving sense having in the end a 'counterfit faith"

 

[Steven_15]

I do not see the distictiom between assurance of salvation and eternal security. Without an eternal security there can be no assurance of salvation.

Without assurance, security is meaningless in a person's christian life!

 

[Steven_15]

Those who remain steadfast to Jesus as their Lord and Savior until they did confirm that they are elected by God, but remember that it does not mean never sins, nor cannot sin for a season, bu t that they will not stay always in that sinning state, as they msut at some time repent and return to God!
I do not see someone trusting in Jesus as their Lord in a saving sense having in the end a 'counterfit faith"

What do you mean by repenting and returning to God? After repenting, you are not returning to "sinlessness" but again to the same old "not sinless" state. But you are lying by saying you have returned to God!