Featured Repeating the Lords Prayer

And I said they didn't.

Your version is written in such a way as for it to mean it is a template prayer like many Baptists claim it is.

So it starts your way: "Pray to the Father". Which can only mean one thing, pray to the Father Baptist style like: "Dear Father, please help me get through today".

Whereas in the way Jesus says it (as has been reported to us in the Holy Scriptures) he says begin the prayer by saying theses exact words "Our Father, who art in heaven...…" So the two are definitely different in meaning as to how the prayer should be prayed. The EXACT words given to us are meant to be said, it is not to be used as a template.

 

Not the way you mean it. If I walk dragging one foot and raising the other high and tell you to walk EXACTLY like I just showed you and said, I mean I want to you to walk exactly like that. My crazy walk was not a template of walking, but an EXACT way of walking. Now if I just say "walk", that means you just walk normally. That is what you are missing about the Lord's Prayer, you have a total and complete misunderstanding of it.

But once again you refuse to answer my question, from which bible version did you get this prayer as you posted it, or, did you write it yourself?

Now, since I have not read YOUR version in any bible I have ever read, the only true answer can be is that you are the one who wrote it, you are the one who has twisted the words of Jesus, the words which have been passed down to us from the beginning of Christianity.

The "Van" version of the Lord's Prayer is not one to believe in, it is a fake and a fraud. One thing is clear, you have absolutely no credibility on what we are discussing here because of your misrepresentation of the Lord's Prayer.

 

What a bunch of garbage!

All hail the prophetess Ellen White!

 

Sir, I am guessing that your understanding is that Jesus did not really mean, "When ye pray, SAY..." when he said "When ye pray, SAY..."

Reductio ad absurdum.

Indeed, and we should also follow His explicit instructions. "When ye pray, SAY, Our Father..."

---> Luke 11:1-2

 

People who have nothing but nonsense to support their mistaken view, usually fall back on ad hominems.

The idea we are to recite the translation we like, rather than engage our minds and spirits is ludicrous.

Pray like this:

Pray to the Father
and recognize His authority.
Ask for an understanding of His will,
and the willingness to follow.
Ask only for what you need,
and the wisdom to avoid needless desires.
Forgive anyone you think has sinned against you,
and ask for forgiveness for your sins.
Ask for guidance to overcome temptation, and
for insight to keep falsehoods and lies far from you.

(Matt. 6:9-15)​

 

Your position remains absurd, Sir. The idea we should recite the translation we like is ludicrous.

 

Good synopsis.

Have you seen what "the evil" to be delivered from in the passage is?

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.​

So, do you see the temptation and the evil?

 

More than one verse tells us to pray not to be lead into temptation. And some of the modern versions go with "evil one" rather than evil, but based on my study, the evil one view is mistaken.

1Ti 6:9
But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.

Luke 22:40
When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”

Luke 8:13
“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Mark 14:38
“Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

 

The "temptation" (context Matthew 6) is to doubt God's forgiveness, which if we do, leads us to "the evil" (Matthew 6), being unforgiving ourselves, and then unlike our Father which is in Heaven, and thus also un-Christlike, as the Son is like the Father.

 

And yet the Psalms exist. What's stopping my mind from remembering them and my heart from using them? The same goes for the Lord's Prayer. Seriously, if what you are saying were true, hymns are neither prayer nor worship as they are typically the rote repetition of memorised phrases.

 

Is this a joke?

Do you only use Hebrew and Koine Greek copies of Scripture?

 

I always worry when my view is expressed as "what you are saying" leaving it to an unknown implication.

I have sung (not well) songs where I did not understand the words. Not the sort of worship or prayer taught in scripture which engages both our spirits and minds.

I provided the scriptural support for my (actual) view, that Jesus was teaching how to pray, and that rote repetition of memorized words is not how to pray. we are to engage our minds and spirits.

If you look at say Psalm 136, which repeats a line over and over, as a literary device to emphatically proclaim God's steadfast love for His chosen ones, and then leap over to the idea it supports rote repetitive prayer, I think that is a bridge too far.

One of my favorite songs is "This is My Father's World" which of course has repetitive lines. But when I sing it (not well) my mind considers the wonders I have seen such as the Grand Canyon, Sequoia Trees, the Oregon Coast, and on and on.

 

I did not say we must use the exact words Jesus spoke, you did. And your view is Ludicrous.
On top, you asserted His exact words were given in a particular translation. Which of course is absurd.

To defend falsehood with ad hominems and absurdity to to wave the white flag. I was trying to help.

 

Recall your argument is we cannot quote Jesus because His words were originally spoken in Greek.

That is ludicrous and illogical.

 

As I pointed out earlier - the First century document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles - 65AD) was written while many of the Apostles were still alive.
Here is what it says:

Chapter 8. Concerning Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer)
But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Neither pray as the hypocrites; but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Yours is the power and the glory for ever.
Thrice in the day thus pray.

The Early Church was instructed to pray this prayer - VERBATIM, as the Lord taught - on a DAILY basis.

Notice the ending doxology which is in your Protestant KJV - but NOT in the original Greek manuscripts.
This was originally from The Didache, which was ADDED into the KJV.

Therefore - YOUR idea that we should NOT recite the Lord's Prayer as written is Scripturally and historically bankrupt.

 

Did anyone say we could not "quote" Jesus? Nope, so yet another false charge, another dodge, and evasion of truth.

It seems to me you should study the Lord's prayer and start implementing its instructions.

 

One place non-Catholics differ from Catholics is we rely for faith and practice of scripture alone, whereas Catholics also use non-biblical sources such as the above.

The last line appears in some translations, such as the KJV, but not in those based on the Critical Text, such as the NASB.

Please study the interpretative translation and tell me how the meaning of Christ's message was changed.

 

Which brings us right back to the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura - a 16th century invention of MEN.
It is Scripturally untenable, as it cannot be substantiated from the very Scriptures that Sola Scripturists purport to be our "Sole" Authority. So, before you go imposing that standard on Christians - you need to PROVE it.

That aside - my reason for showing you what was taught in the Didache was NOT an attempt to impose Catholic teaching on you. It was to show you precisely HOW the 1st century Church practiced their faith - which is a FAR cry from 21st century Protestantism.

The plain fact of the matter is that this 1st century Church WAS reciting the Lord's Prayer on a daily basis - as written.

 

Try to keep up with your own objections...

Your words ---> Sir, I am guessing your understanding is that Jesus was saying parrot these the exact words. So apparently we should be speaking Greek without understanding what the words mean. Sorry but I think that view is nonsense...


Jesus' words ---> "When ye pray, SAY, Our Father..."

---> Luke 11:1-2