Repeating the Lords Prayer

[Adonia]

I said the two versions have the same meaning.

And I said they didn't.

Where does the version you object to differ in meaning?

Your version is written in such a way as for it to mean it is a template prayer like many Baptists claim it is.

So it starts your way: "Pray to the Father". Which can only mean one thing, pray to the Father Baptist style like: "Dear Father, please help me get through today".

Whereas in the way Jesus says it (as has been reported to us in the Holy Scriptures) he says begin the prayer by saying theses exact words "Our Father, who art in heaven...…" So the two are definitely different in meaning as to how the prayer should be prayed. The EXACT words given to us are meant to be said, it is not to be used as a template.

 

[Adonia]

Utterly false - pray like this means pray like this.

Not the way you mean it. If I walk dragging one foot and raising the other high and tell you to walk EXACTLY like I just showed you and said, I mean I want to you to walk exactly like that. My crazy walk was not a template of walking, but an EXACT way of walking. Now if I just say "walk", that means you just walk normally. That is what you are missing about the Lord's Prayer, you have a total and complete misunderstanding of it.

But once again you refuse to answer my question, from which bible version did you get this prayer as you posted it, or, did you write it yourself?

Now, since I have not read YOUR version in any bible I have ever read, the only true answer can be is that you are the one who wrote it, you are the one who has twisted the words of Jesus, the words which have been passed down to us from the beginning of Christianity.

The "Van" version of the Lord's Prayer is not one to believe in, it is a fake and a fraud. One thing is clear, you have absolutely no credibility on what we are discussing here because of your misrepresentation of the Lord's Prayer.

 

[Adonia]

Little Boy/Girl: *internal dialgoue* Where are my beads, I cannot seem to find where I lay them... "Beads... O Beads?!... beads, where are you?" I can't find my... Oh! Here they are! In my pocket... "Praise St. XXXXX..." now where did I put my blue pieta book...

God: *with incalculable, unchanging, eternal love* I would like to spend time with you...

Little Boy/Girl: *frustrated* I am looking for my blue pieta book, please do not bother me, this is important, I must have that book so I can speak to God...

God: What about that Bible over there, under all of the misslettes, have you opened it and seen my words for you today?

Little Boy/Girl: *confused* Today is Thursday, I am not in church, why would I... OH! My blue pieta book, I found it, "Thanks be to St. XXXXX..." now where are all my candles and incenses... I will need those to remember St. XXXXX and St. XXXXX and this deceased and this deceased...

God: Have you not read what Peter hath said by the Holy Spirit and the Prophets, that even King David is not yet ascended into Heaven, is dead and buried and his tomb is still there, or the word of my servant Luke which recorded that Stephen fell asleep, or the word of my servant Paul, that the dead do not rise until the last day, and that they will all sleep until I come for them in that day at the last tump, for I am now preparing a place?

Little Boy/Girl: *irked* Silly, did you not know that God is the God of the living and not the dead... *turns around*, "Ha!, there they are, my candles..." "O, bless you Ma..."

God: Child, I truly Am the God of the living, for if you would but open the pages of My Book where are recorded my words, and see, I said, "For in the resurrection..." and "...as touching the resurrection..."

Little Boy/Girl: *angry* * blustered* *out loud* "Moses, Elijah and Enoch and some others whom you took with you when you where raised are in Heaven!!!" *accidently drops the glass candleholder* *shatters on the floor* NOW SEE WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!! *exhales* *inhales* *exhales heavily* Now I have to clean this up before I can even begin to talk to God... *woe is me* *searches for a broom* searching, searching, searching, all it seems that I am doing today is searching... searching for this, for that, and I cannot even have time to search for God...

God: Yes, true, they whom you mention, are indeed with me in Heaven, but for Moses and the firstfruits, whom all had fallen on sleep in death, I raised them unto myself in a special resurrection and took them with me at those times, and as for Enoch He daily walked with Me and so I took him personally, and for Elijah I sent a mighty Angel to gather Him and so they never saw death, nor fell on sleep. Child, have ye not read what I said unto Adam, and what ye hear at least once a year in your 'Ash Wednesday', "Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return.", that I gave my breath, and breathed into his nostrils that he would become a living soul, and when returned unto dust, that breath which I gave unto him, is returned unto Me, for it is mine, as I am the only that hath Life within?

Little Boy/Girl: *fuming* *outraged* *takes broom and swings at the air in front of them* *knocks over the bronze statue of Mary* *GASPS*!!!!! *drops broom and reaches down to the image and gently lifts it back up and puts it back onto the pedestal* *strokes it* "You are ok Mary, I did not mean it." *Kisses her cold metal cheek* "To make reparations for damaging you I will confess to my priest and ask for severe penance today by phone!, let me go call him right now..." *dials* "Father, you will not believe what I did today... father, this and this... father, o father this Devil kept bothering me today and telling me things, will you do your 'spiritual exercises' and make it go away?... O thank you, father..." *hangs up, glad that is done* *whew* what a load off of my heart... now, time to pray...

God: Why do you call that person 'father' on earth, did you not know of your Father who actually is in Heaven who always seeth you? I AM even here to help you child, even as I Jesus girded myself with a towel and washed the disciples feet, even as I came down from above to serve, why did you not ask me? Did you not know that I minister there for you before the Father in the Heavenly Sanctuary, the True Tabernacle which I pitched and not man, even as I AM your Great High Priest, that I bore all the sin, sickness and suffering of all of humanity and who AM touched with the feeling of your infirmities?

Little Boy/Girl: *exasperated* Who are you supposed to be? I do not know your voice, it is unfamiliar... anyways I got what I need right here, my specially blessed Rosary beads from Fatima, my blue pieta book from Rome signed by the Cardinal, and my candles, all of which are made with truly miraculous ingredients, from several shrines around the globe where Mary has appeared...

God: My sheep know my voice, and they know me... Did you want to come to know me right now, I will spend the rest of the day with you...

Little Boy/Girl: *becoming worn out, tired and shakes head* I cannot right now, I am busy trying to pray to God, you sound interesting, but how do I know you are not another Devil sent from Satan to distract me from praying, please come back another time, I am busy repeating these words, "Our Father who art in Heaven..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..." "Our Father..." "Hail Mary..." Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..." "Our Father..." ...

God: Will you not speak unto me?...

Little Boy/Girl: *agitated, tries to ignore, and speaks a little louder*... "...Glory Be..." one decade done, four more to complete one whole, and then around again two more times... "Our Father..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..."

God: Do you not want to speak with me as unto a friend? Do you speak unto your friends that way? Counting, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... and starting over when they desire to share and fellowship with you?

Little Boy/Girl: *sighs, tries to mentally zone out everything into blackness*... "...who art in heaven..." Major Bead "...Mary...", 1 Bead "...Mary...", 2 Bead "...Mary...", 3 Bead "...Mary...", 4 Bead "...Mary...", 5 Bead "...Mary...", 6 Bead "...Mary...", 7 Bead "...Mary...", 8 Bead "...Mary...", 9 Bead "...Mary...", 10 Bead, "Glory Be..."

God: Not to bother you too much, but may I ask you another question?

Little Boy/Girl: *annoyed, tries breath techniques acquired of the monks of asia*... "...in heaven..." "...Mary..." "...Mary..." "...Mary..." "...Be..."

God: Do you want me to leave you alone?

Little Boy/Girl: *fed up, disregards* 3 Bead, ... 4 Bead, ... 5 Bead, ... 6 Bead, ...

God: Ok, child, I will leave you alone today, though it break my heart and tears run down my cheeks, that my child will not hear or understand my voice. O what sadness, my poor poor child, rocks back and forth, back and forth, clinging to their beads, rubbing them, counting them 1, 2, 3... I can heal you child, if you will but let me, for I cannot, in my love, force it upon you... I love you, I Jesus, died for you, for that is how much I love you...

Little Boy/Girl: *oblivious* ... 7 Bead, ... 8 Bead, ... 9 Bead, ... almost done praying today, wow how refreshing to be rid of that pesky spirit asking all those nagging questions, and I can now spend time with God in peace and quiet, for today I will begin to memorize my new pieta book, they just updated it, that way I will always have that with me...

God: My Word is there on the table, and I love you, and I change not...

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

What a bunch of garbage!

All hail the prophetess Ellen White!

 

[Walpole]

Sir, I am guessing your understanding is that Jesus was saying parrot these the exact words.

Sir, I am guessing that your understanding is that Jesus did not really mean, "When ye pray, SAY..." when he said "When ye pray, SAY..."

So apparently we should be speaking Greek without understanding what the words mean. Sorry but I think that view is nonsense.

Reductio ad absurdum.

We should have the message and meaning of Jesus in our minds and hearts, IMHO.

Indeed, and we should also follow His explicit instructions. "When ye pray, SAY, Our Father..."

---> Luke 11:1-2

 

[Van]

Not the way you mean it. If I walk dragging one foot and raising the other high and tell you to walk EXACTLY like I just showed you and said, I mean I want to you to walk exactly like that. My crazy walk was not a template of walking, but an EXACT way of walking. Now if I just say "walk", that means you just walk normally. That is what you are missing about the Lord's Prayer, you have a total and complete misunderstanding of it.

But once again you refuse to answer my question, from which bible version did you get this prayer as you posted it, or, did you write it yourself?

Now, since I have not read YOUR version in any bible I have ever read, the only true answer can be is that you are the one who wrote it, you are the one who has twisted the words of Jesus, the words which have been passed down to us from the beginning of Christianity.

The "Van" version of the Lord's Prayer is not one to believe in, it is a fake and a fraud. One thing is clear, you have absolutely no credibility on what we are discussing here because of your misrepresentation of the Lord's Prayer.

People who have nothing but nonsense to support their mistaken view, usually fall back on ad hominems.

The idea we are to recite the translation we like, rather than engage our minds and spirits is ludicrous.

Pray like this:

Pray to the Father
and recognize His authority.
Ask for an understanding of His will,
and the willingness to follow.
Ask only for what you need,
and the wisdom to avoid needless desires.
Forgive anyone you think has sinned against you,
and ask for forgiveness for your sins.
Ask for guidance to overcome temptation, and
for insight to keep falsehoods and lies far from you.

(Matt. 6:9-15)​

 

[Van]

Sir, I am guessing that your understanding is that Jesus did not really mean, "When ye pray, SAY..." when he said "When ye pray, SAY..."
Reductio ad absurdum.
Indeed, and we should also follow His explicit instructions. "When ye pray, SAY, Our Father..."
---> Luke 11:1-2

Your position remains absurd, Sir. The idea we should recite the translation we like is ludicrous.

 

[Alofa Atu]

People who have nothing but nonsense to support their mistaken view, usually fall back on ad hominems.

The idea we are to recite the translation we like, rather than engage our minds and spirits is ludicrous.

Pray like this:

Pray to the Father
and recognize His authority.
Ask for an understanding of His will,
and the willingness to follow.
Ask only for what you need,
and the wisdom to avoid needless desires.
Forgive anyone you think has sinned against you,
and ask for forgiveness for your sins.
Ask for guidance to overcome temptation, and
for insight to keep falsehoods and lies far from you.

(Matt. 6:9-15)​

Good synopsis.

Have you seen what "the evil" to be delivered from in the passage is?

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.​

So, do you see the temptation and the evil?

 

[Van]

Good synopsis.

Have you seen what "the evil" to be delivered from in the passage is?

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.​

So, do you see the temptation and the evil?

More than one verse tells us to pray not to be lead into temptation. And some of the modern versions go with "evil one" rather than evil, but based on my study, the evil one view is mistaken.

1Ti 6:9
But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.

Luke 22:40
When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”

Luke 8:13
“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Mark 14:38
“Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

 

[Alofa Atu]

More than one verse tells us to pray not to be lead into temptation. And some of the modern versions go with "evil one" rather than evil, but based on my study, the evil one view is mistaken.

1Ti 6:9
But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.

Luke 22:40
When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”

Luke 8:13
“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Mark 14:38
“Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

The "temptation" (context Matthew 6) is to doubt God's forgiveness, which if we do, leads us to "the evil" (Matthew 6), being unforgiving ourselves, and then unlike our Father which is in Heaven, and thus also un-Christlike, as the Son is like the Father.

 

[Drifter]

I sorry but rote repetition of memorized phrases is not worship or prayer. We must speak from our own hearts to God with love and devotion.

And yet the Psalms exist. What's stopping my mind from remembering them and my heart from using them? The same goes for the Lord's Prayer. Seriously, if what you are saying were true, hymns are neither prayer nor worship as they are typically the rote repetition of memorised phrases.

 

[Walpole]

Your position remains absurd, Sir. The idea we should recite the translation we like is ludicrous.

Is this a joke?

Do you only use Hebrew and Koine Greek copies of Scripture?

 

[Van]

And yet the Psalms exist. What's stopping my mind from remembering them and my heart from using them? The same goes for the Lord's Prayer. Seriously, if what you are saying were true, hymns are neither prayer nor worship as they are typically the rote repetition of memorised phrases.

I always worry when my view is expressed as "what you are saying" leaving it to an unknown implication.

I have sung (not well) songs where I did not understand the words. Not the sort of worship or prayer taught in scripture which engages both our spirits and minds.

I provided the scriptural support for my (actual) view, that Jesus was teaching how to pray, and that rote repetition of memorized words is not how to pray. we are to engage our minds and spirits.

If you look at say Psalm 136, which repeats a line over and over, as a literary device to emphatically proclaim God's steadfast love for His chosen ones, and then leap over to the idea it supports rote repetitive prayer, I think that is a bridge too far.

One of my favorite songs is "This is My Father's World" which of course has repetitive lines. But when I sing it (not well) my mind considers the wonders I have seen such as the Grand Canyon, Sequoia Trees, the Oregon Coast, and on and on.

 

[Van]

Is this a joke?

Do you only use Hebrew and Koine Greek copies of Scripture?

I did not say we must use the exact words Jesus spoke, you did. And your view is Ludicrous.
On top, you asserted His exact words were given in a particular translation. Which of course is absurd.

To defend falsehood with ad hominems and absurdity to to wave the white flag. I was trying to help.

 

[Walpole]

I did not say we must use the exact words Jesus spoke, you did. And your view is Ludicrous.
On top, you asserted His exact words were given in a particular translation. Which of course is absurd.

To defend falsehood with ad hominems and absurdity to to wave the white flag. I was trying to help.

Recall your argument is we cannot quote Jesus because His words were originally spoken in Greek.

That is ludicrous and illogical.

 

[MarysSon]

Your position remains absurd, Sir. The idea we should recite the translation we like is ludicrous.

As I pointed out earlier - the First century document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles - 65AD) was written while many of the Apostles were still alive.
Here is what it says:

Chapter 8. Concerning Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer)
But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Neither pray as the hypocrites; but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Yours is the power and the glory for ever.
Thrice in the day thus pray.

The Early Church was instructed to pray this prayer - VERBATIM, as the Lord taught - on a DAILY basis.

Notice the ending doxology which is in your Protestant KJV - but NOT in the original Greek manuscripts.
This was originally from The Didache, which was ADDED into the KJV.

Therefore - YOUR idea that we should NOT recite the Lord's Prayer as written is Scripturally and historically bankrupt.

 

[Van]

Recall your argument is we cannot quote Jesus because His words were originally spoken in Greek.

That is ludicrous and illogical.

Did anyone say we could not "quote" Jesus? Nope, so yet another false charge, another dodge, and evasion of truth.

It seems to me you should study the Lord's prayer and start implementing its instructions.

 

[Van]

As I pointed out earlier - the First century document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles - 65AD) was written while many of the Apostles were still alive.
Here is what it says:

Chapter 8. Concerning Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer)
But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Neither pray as the hypocrites; but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Yours is the power and the glory for ever.
Thrice in the day thus pray.

The Early Church was instructed to pray this prayer - VERBATIM, as the Lord taught - on a DAILY basis.

Notice the ending doxology which is in your Protestant KJV - but NOT in the original Greek manuscripts.
This was originally from The Didache, which was ADDED into the KJV.

Therefore - YOUR idea that we should NOT recite the Lord's Prayer as written is Scripturally and historically bankrupt.

One place non-Catholics differ from Catholics is we rely for faith and practice of scripture alone, whereas Catholics also use non-biblical sources such as the above.

The last line appears in some translations, such as the KJV, but not in those based on the Critical Text, such as the NASB.

Please study the interpretative translation and tell me how the meaning of Christ's message was changed.

 

[MarysSon]

One place non-Catholics differ from Catholics is we rely for faith and practice of scripture alone, whereas Catholics also use non-biblical sources such as the above.
The last line appears in some translations, such as the KJV, but not in those based on the Critical Text, such as the NASB.
Please study the interpretative translation and tell me how the meaning of Christ's message was changed.

Which brings us right back to the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura - a 16th century invention of MEN.
It is Scripturally untenable, as it cannot be substantiated from the very Scriptures that Sola Scripturists purport to be our "Sole" Authority. So, before you go imposing that standard on Christians - you need to PROVE it.

That aside - my reason for showing you what was taught in the Didache was NOT an attempt to impose Catholic teaching on you. It was to show you precisely HOW the 1st century Church practiced their faith - which is a FAR cry from 21st century Protestantism.

The plain fact of the matter is that this 1st century Church WAS reciting the Lord's Prayer on a daily basis - as written.

 

[Walpole]

Did anyone say we could not "quote" Jesus? Nope, so yet another false charge, another dodge, and evasion of truth.

It seems to me you should study the Lord's prayer and start implementing its instructions.

Try to keep up with your own objections...

Your words ---> Sir, I am guessing your understanding is that Jesus was saying parrot these the exact words. So apparently we should be speaking Greek without understanding what the words mean. Sorry but I think that view is nonsense...


Jesus' words ---> "When ye pray, SAY, Our Father..."

---> Luke 11:1-2

 

[Salty]

SIX Hour Warning Thread will close no sooner than 7 PM (EDT) 4 pm (PDT).

This thread just keeps saying the same thing over and over

With no progress - there is no need to waste any more time