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Featured Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alofa Atu, May 24, 2020.

  1. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    What does the word Tishbite mean? Enoch was not left alone in some mystical box of human designation. Enoch was sent immediately to Canaan, his name was changed, then Elishah watched him leave, in the air again, and Elijah went immediately to the Mt. Of Transfiguration. Both Elijah and Moses are witnesses, two of the 4 beast. They are two humans along with the Twelve Sons of Jacob, and the 12 Apostles of Jesus.
     
  2. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    It is not spiritualism. It is a fact of God’s creation. God put the words in the Bible. Jesus Christ had 6 parts. A human body, soul, and spirit. No person today even has a spirit walking around on the earth. That is the body of light. Jesus' spirit was seen on the mount of transfiguration.

    Then Jesus was fully God, the Word, and the Spirit. His God body was the Ghost walking around. His human body in the tomb returned to dust. His God Spirit and soul went to Paradise. His human soul and spirit went to, in a split second, hell, and freed the captives in Abraham's bosom and met up with the God body, and the quickened human soul and spirit, and it was a ghost, because it had no physical properties. Those 3 days were spent with all the OT saints out of sight of humanity, lest it all be recorded, and turned into historical fact. They all were ghosts. Sunday afternoon Jesus and all the OT saints were presented to God, and placed under the alter, in Paradise. Jesus fully restored in all aspects as the Lamb returned to be with his disciples on earth.

    This is not doctrine or theology. It is simply the fact of the matter.
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Again, that is WTS/JW theology.

    Scripture instead says:

    Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    Act_13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Act_13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.​
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    She died, that much is for certain, and she denied the truths of the real jesus and real Gospel!
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    was that Jesus as Michael there?
     
  6. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The human body returned to dust. Those verses are about His God body. Stating that His God body stayed in the grave is wrong. It was walking around with the other OT saints. God is a Spirit. That body is not a body of flesh. It was the same body though that Jesus had as a baby and grew up with. Those verses do not contradict what I post. In fact it was the God body that did not see corruption. The human body did. Because God says that earthly flesh cannot enter heaven, because it is of the earth. Jesus' human body was corrupted just like ours. Just because Jesus was God did not mean his human fleshly body was supernatural. It had the same problems all other humans at that time had. In fact Jesus suffered in the flesh to experience all of our human failings. The only difference was, Jesus went through them without sinning.

    If you interpret those verses to mean the physical body of Jesus never got sick, that is your choice. It was the spiritual body that was not corrupted by the physical one. Hebrews 4.
     
  7. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    The Son of God is always "Michael" (Who is as like unto God (the Father)), as the Son is the "express image" of the Father. "Michael" is just another designation for the Son. Why persons get upset at that, can only be due to the confusion brought in by the Roman system and the WTS/JW system.

    It is not like the WTS/JW theology where the Son turns off/on 'Michael-ness'. It is not like the Roman system where 'Michael' is a created being.

    It is difficult for some to acknowledge these things, but if you can accept it you ought to, but if not, God is patient, and will explain it in the hereafter to those who are found in Christ Jesus. Therefore, as God is patient, so will I be toward those who cannot yet see these things. I do not think anyone damned who cannot yet see it, even if others think I am who can.
     
  8. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    You refer to Luke 16's parable (demonstrated upon request contextually and linguistically). There is nowhere present in the parable that the person spoken of "Lazarus" was the actual Lazarus (whom Jesus knew of Mary, Martha). Considering the context of Luke 16, and the other gospels taken together, there is no way to even know whether the parable of Luke 16 was given before or after Lazarus' (whom Jesus knew of Mary, Martha) sickness and death. "Lazarus" is the koine Greek form of the OT "Eliezer" (of whom Abraham knew; Genesis 15:2). There is much more there, but only discussed by request.

    See above response.

    Yes it does, as so many texts were and shall be again provided. To simply take one place, such as the parable of Luke 16, and teach as you do, does violence (wrest) to the rest of the scriptures. First, we need to define the word "soul" according to scripture, and not Platonically.

    That is dualism, or platonism, or neo platonism. It is not scriptural. More as needful.

    There are plenty more.

    Lake of fire to be precise. Yes, the wicked (mankind) will be conscious after their resurrection, and so also the fallen angels (also conscious), to experience the lake of fire, or hellfire.

    Yes, those who have been resurrected and taken to or translated to alive are conscious in Heaven, but those who are dead asleep, aren't conscious, and neither in Heaven (except as written there).

    See John 3:16.

    No. Paradise is the 3rd Heaven, yes (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). Yet, it was not "all OT saints" that went to Heaven the third day from Calvary's events, and notice that those saints were not in Heaven before the events thereof either (which just disproved your assertion). Notice the text itself:

    Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

    It was a localized (around Jerusalem only) and special resurrection (many, not all). These are called the "firstfruits", and scripture does not say how many were resurrected, but in saying that they are firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:20,23), it can only be a 'portion' of those 'saints' in all the graves.
     
  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Read the context again. The thief did not enter 'Paradise' that day (the day Jesus died, as Jesus Himself did not even enter Paradise that day). The context shows when the thief would enter (after his resurrection):

    Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.​

    Jesus had not that day "comest into [his] Kingdom". Notice:

    Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

    far country:

    Isa_13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.​

    Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

    The phrase in Luke 23:43 in koine Greek reads:

    Luk 23:43 και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω​

    The "today" is not a reference to the 'when' the thief shall enter. It is directly connected to the saying, "Verily, I say unto thee (today) ..."

    The KJB in its English is perfect, it is only a missing punctuation here (printers punctual error) that was never caught. This may be demonstrated by the way in which all such phrases in the NT are given (demonstrable upon request), and the context (as shown above) that shows the proof of this.

    Whom ever said it was? Not I.

    That is a confusion of paradises. The Eden of Heaven and the Eden of earth. Again, demonstrable upon request.
     
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but 'when' Paul also mentioned:

    1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

    The Lord is not dead, but alive. Thus in death, is the unclothed state or sleeping state, in which we are not yet "present" with the Lord. You must take all of the counsel of Paul together, as he was citing Job.

    Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
    Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
    Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    Isa_34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​

    Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

    Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.​

    Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

    Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

    Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.​
     
  11. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Abraham was having a conversation with a soul in hell. No there was no physical body. It does not matter who teaches what. Only what God's Word says. The body is destroyed, the soul is conscious in death.

    The first fruits did not remain in Abraham's bosom in part. They all left and after 3.5 days entered Paradise under the alter. The same place each human, who dies in Christ, one by one goes. No one could enter until the Cross.

    They are not asleep but as ghost are waiting for their glorified bodies. This is spiritual reality. It has nothing to do with physical death, and the returning to dust of the fleshly body. Death and sleep is the physical side, not the spiritual. The spiritual has no need for death and sleep. Not even in hell.
     
  12. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I am not denying any of these verses. The point that the thief could not go Abraham's bosom was that no one was there. Jesus knew that. The thief was the first one to go to Paradise, because he died after Jesus and his body was still on the cross. His soul went immediately to Paradise. The next one to die, that we know of, was Stephen, being stoned to death. His soul immediately went to Paradise as well.

    The OT saints, their souls came out of the graves, it was a resurrection. But most did not have a body to raise. No one gets a body, until the opening of the 5th seal. And as Paul said, the 6th seal will be immediately following the 5th seal. The OT saints did go to Paradise 3.5 days after the Atonement on the Cross. They went with Jesus like He told Mary that morning, would happen.
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Enoch, Elijah and Moses all got there way before Calvary, and the thief is not yet there (as he hasn't had a resurrection yet).
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Michael is NEVER called Jesus in the scriptures! Michael is one of the chief princes, an archangel, and Jesus is God!
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Physical dead are awake in heaven , see Revelation, as they are asking God to avenge their deaths!
     
  16. MarysSon

    MarysSon Active Member

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    It's not that - it's just that your SDA indoctrination runs FAR too deep to have an intelligent, objective conversation.
    I just see it as a waste of time.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    may the Holy Spirit open his mind and heart to true Gospel!
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Well you can take that up with Jesus and your interpretation. Jesus did not lie, and the thief was in Paradise that day.

    As for the two witnesses Moses and Enoch/Elijah they are the 4 beast. They come and go as God commands. They and the 24 elders, may or may not be in Paradise. They are listed and appear separate from the rest of humanity in Paradise.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is NOT Michael, as Jesus is Divine, is God's Son, and is Himself also God, while Michael is the chief archangel, not Divine, and subject to the Holy Trinity. We showed you the Scripture proving Michael is not Jesus.

    To say Jesus = Michael, Michael = Jesus is HERESY !
     
  20. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Apologies, but I am not Roman Catholic, nor adhere to its theological position therein. If you do not mean their position, would you define the words you use, most especially the last one?

    I believe in the Holy Heavenly Trio.
     
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