Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

[timtofly]

I know of no "Baptist" who teaches that, as it is unscriptural. What are you?

Enoch was the 7th from Adam (as per Genesis 5:18, Luke 3:37, etc):

Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

Not so Elijah, who was a Tishbite, of Gilead:

1Ki_17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

1Ki_21:17 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

1Ki_21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

2Ki_1:3 But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?

2Ki_1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.

2Ki_9:36 Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:​

What does the word Tishbite mean? Enoch was not left alone in some mystical box of human designation. Enoch was sent immediately to Canaan, his name was changed, then Elishah watched him leave, in the air again, and Elijah went immediately to the Mt. Of Transfiguration. Both Elijah and Moses are witnesses, two of the 4 beast. They are two humans along with the Twelve Sons of Jacob, and the 12 Apostles of Jesus.

 

[timtofly]

Did you read Isaiah 26:19 about the "dead body" of Jesus being raised with the others, and Matthew 27 in connection with its fulfillment? Luke 24:39 is indeed after Jesus ascended and returned to meet with the disciples, which is a fulfillment of other typology and prophecy.

Yet you intend that the scripture teaches Jesus was a 'ghost' until he returned to meet with the disciples? Isaiah 26:19 and Matthew 27 do not share your spiritualistic view. Furthermore, it is written:

Joh 20:11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
Joh 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. [Past tense, the body was in the tomb, but when resurrected and glorified, got up and walked out. There is no 'ghost' here.]
Joh 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. [Mary was confused, as the body of Jesus was missing from inside of the tomb, for she had not yet known of His resurrection.]
Joh 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. [She did not know it was Jesus for several reasons. She was weeping, the unexpected resurrection (her mind did not expect Jesus could be alive to make such connection), Jesus had a change of clothes (was not in the burial clothes as had been, for they remained in the tomb) and Jesus was glorofied, no longer weak, emaciated in fallen flesh.]
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.[Jesus spake with a mouth, which must have vocal chords, a throat, tongue, etc all connected together in His resurrected and glorified body. With what shall you have a 'ghost' speak with? Name the parts it uses to do this.]
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. [Mary tried to touch Jesus' resurrected and glorified body, but He restrained her from so doing, until He had ascended and returned.]
Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her. [Mary does not recount having seen a 'ghost'. She recounts having seen "the Lord", knowing now the reason for the missing body from the tomb.]​

The other Gospels share the same:

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mat 28:5 And the angel [Gabriel] answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. [the body of Jesus was now missing from the tomb, as when Gabriel (and also 'herald') came down, by command of the Father, called forth the Son to life, who arose bodily and walked out of the tomb, saying, "I am the resurrection and the Life."]
Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Mat 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.​

Spiritualism teaches that 'ghosts' do not need resurrection, nor have any. 'Ghosts' don't have 'feet', as it is an attribute of the body. A 'spirit-body' is a contradiction in terms, a self contradiction.

Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Luk 24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Luk 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. [Just as foretold]

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Joh 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Joh 20:5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
Joh 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
Joh 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.​

The Pharisees, Romans, etc were not afraid of a 'ghost' returning. They feared a missing body. They sealed that tomb as physically as they could, and even evil and good angels surrounded it. It was the most protected place ever on earth.

You are teaching pure spiritualism, that Jesus was a 'ghost'. It is not Baptist theology. It is satan's theology. It is antithetical to the Gospel itself, and to all the evidence of the resurrection.

It is not spiritualism. It is a fact of God’s creation. God put the words in the Bible. Jesus Christ had 6 parts. A human body, soul, and spirit. No person today even has a spirit walking around on the earth. That is the body of light. Jesus' spirit was seen on the mount of transfiguration.

Then Jesus was fully God, the Word, and the Spirit. His God body was the Ghost walking around. His human body in the tomb returned to dust. His God Spirit and soul went to Paradise. His human soul and spirit went to, in a split second, hell, and freed the captives in Abraham's bosom and met up with the God body, and the quickened human soul and spirit, and it was a ghost, because it had no physical properties. Those 3 days were spent with all the OT saints out of sight of humanity, lest it all be recorded, and turned into historical fact. They all were ghosts. Sunday afternoon Jesus and all the OT saints were presented to God, and placed under the alter, in Paradise. Jesus fully restored in all aspects as the Lamb returned to be with his disciples on earth.

This is not doctrine or theology. It is simply the fact of the matter.

 

[Alofa Atu]

His human body in the tomb returned to dust.

Again, that is WTS/JW theology.

Scripture instead says:

Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Act_13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.​

 

[Yeshua1]

So you were there when she died in 1915?

How else would you know her physical condition? Would you trust hearsay?

She died, that much is for certain, and she denied the truths of the real jesus and real Gospel!

 

[Yeshua1]

It is written:

Deu_34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.​

I trust God's word over yours. Further evidence:

Moses, according to the Word of the LORD, died in the land of Moab, and fell on the sleep of death, and was buried by the LORD Himself.

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: Deuteronomy 4:21

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Deuteronomy 4:22

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. Deuteronomy 31:2

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. Deuteronomy 31:14

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16…

And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: Deuteronomy 32:40...

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Deuteronomy 34:7

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. Deuteronomy 34:8…

And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered. Numbers 27:13

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. Numbers 31:2

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. John 8:52

Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? John 8:53

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14​

was that Jesus as Michael there?

 

[timtofly]

Again, that is WTS/JW theology.

Scripture instead says:

Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Act_13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.​

The human body returned to dust. Those verses are about His God body. Stating that His God body stayed in the grave is wrong. It was walking around with the other OT saints. God is a Spirit. That body is not a body of flesh. It was the same body though that Jesus had as a baby and grew up with. Those verses do not contradict what I post. In fact it was the God body that did not see corruption. The human body did. Because God says that earthly flesh cannot enter heaven, because it is of the earth. Jesus' human body was corrupted just like ours. Just because Jesus was God did not mean his human fleshly body was supernatural. It had the same problems all other humans at that time had. In fact Jesus suffered in the flesh to experience all of our human failings. The only difference was, Jesus went through them without sinning.

If you interpret those verses to mean the physical body of Jesus never got sick, that is your choice. It was the spiritual body that was not corrupted by the physical one. Hebrews 4.

 

[Alofa Atu]

was that Jesus as Michael there?

The Son of God is always "Michael" (Who is as like unto God (the Father)), as the Son is the "express image" of the Father. "Michael" is just another designation for the Son. Why persons get upset at that, can only be due to the confusion brought in by the Roman system and the WTS/JW system.

It is not like the WTS/JW theology where the Son turns off/on 'Michael-ness'. It is not like the Roman system where 'Michael' is a created being.

It is difficult for some to acknowledge these things, but if you can accept it you ought to, but if not, God is patient, and will explain it in the hereafter to those who are found in Christ Jesus. Therefore, as God is patient, so will I be toward those who cannot yet see these things. I do not think anyone damned who cannot yet see it, even if others think I am who can.

 

[Alofa Atu]

... Jesus did mention Lazarus as a begger, did die, and the rich man who let him beg at his gate also went to hell.

You refer to Luke 16's parable (demonstrated upon request contextually and linguistically). There is nowhere present in the parable that the person spoken of "Lazarus" was the actual Lazarus (whom Jesus knew of Mary, Martha). Considering the context of Luke 16, and the other gospels taken together, there is no way to even know whether the parable of Luke 16 was given before or after Lazarus' (whom Jesus knew of Mary, Martha) sickness and death. "Lazarus" is the koine Greek form of the OT "Eliezer" (of whom Abraham knew; Genesis 15:2). There is much more there, but only discussed by request.

Jesus said they did have a conversation.

See above response.

So the soul does not sleep in dust.

Yes it does, as so many texts were and shall be again provided. To simply take one place, such as the parable of Luke 16, and teach as you do, does violence (wrest) to the rest of the scriptures. First, we need to define the word "soul" according to scripture, and not Platonically.

Only the empty shell of the body returns to dust.

That is dualism, or platonism, or neo platonism. It is not scriptural. More as needful.

Since you already quoted all the verses.

There are plenty more.

EGW, herself indicated consciousness in hell

Lake of fire to be precise. Yes, the wicked (mankind) will be conscious after their resurrection, and so also the fallen angels (also conscious), to experience the lake of fire, or hellfire.

and consciousness in heaven.

Yes, those who have been resurrected and taken to or translated to alive are conscious in Heaven, but those who are dead asleep, aren't conscious, and neither in Heaven (except as written there).

Jesus Himself taught it.

See John 3:16.

In fact, Jesus established Paradise as in heaven, the place where all OT saints went on the third day after the cross.

No. Paradise is the 3rd Heaven, yes (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). Yet, it was not "all OT saints" that went to Heaven the third day from Calvary's events, and notice that those saints were not in Heaven before the events thereof either (which just disproved your assertion). Notice the text itself:

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

It was a localized (around Jerusalem only) and special resurrection (many, not all). These are called the "firstfruits", and scripture does not say how many were resurrected, but in saying that they are firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:20,23), it can only be a 'portion' of those 'saints' in all the graves.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The thief being the last OT saint to die, and the first NT saint to enter Paradise. That day.

Read the context again. The thief did not enter 'Paradise' that day (the day Jesus died, as Jesus Himself did not even enter Paradise that day). The context shows when the thief would enter (after his resurrection):

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.​

Jesus had not that day "comest into [his] Kingdom". Notice:

Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

far country:

Isa_13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.​

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

The phrase in Luke 23:43 in koine Greek reads:

Luk 23:43 και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω​

The "today" is not a reference to the 'when' the thief shall enter. It is directly connected to the saying, "Verily, I say unto thee (today) ..."

The KJB in its English is perfect, it is only a missing punctuation here (printers punctual error) that was never caught. This may be demonstrated by the way in which all such phrases in the NT are given (demonstrable upon request), and the context (as shown above) that shows the proof of this.

Paradise was not Abraham's bosom.

Whom ever said it was? Not I.

The reason being Paradise was Eden and was guarded by an angel.

That is a confusion of paradises. The Eden of Heaven and the Eden of earth. Again, demonstrable upon request.

 

[Alofa Atu]

... Paul said, "in death one is absent from the body, and present with the Lord."

Yes, but 'when' Paul also mentioned:

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

The Lord is not dead, but alive. Thus in death, is the unclothed state or sleeping state, in which we are not yet "present" with the Lord. You must take all of the counsel of Paul together, as he was citing Job.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Isa_34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.​

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.​

 

[timtofly]

You refer to Luke 16's parable (demonstrated upon request contextually and linguistically). There is nowhere present in the parable that the person spoken of "Lazarus" was the actual Lazarus (whom Jesus knew of Mary, Martha). Considering the context of Luke 16, and the other gospels taken together, there is no way to even know whether the parable of Luke 16 was given before or after Lazarus' (whom Jesus knew of Mary, Martha) sickness and death. "Lazarus" is the koine Greek form of the OT "Eliezer" (of whom Abraham knew; Genesis 15:2). There is much more there, but only discussed by request.

See above response.

Yes it does, as so many texts were and shall be again provided. To simply take one place, such as the parable of Luke 16, and teach as you do, does violence (wrest) to the rest of the scriptures. First, we need to define the word "soul" according to scripture, and not Platonically.

That is dualism, or platonism, or neo platonism. It is not scriptural. More as needful.

There are plenty more.

Lake of fire to be precise. Yes, the wicked (mankind) will be conscious after their resurrection, and so also the fallen angels (also conscious), to experience the lake of fire, or hellfire.

Yes, those who have been resurrected and taken to or translated to alive are conscious in Heaven, but those who are dead asleep, aren't conscious, and neither in Heaven (except as written there).

See John 3:16.

No. Paradise is the 3rd Heaven, yes (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). Yet, it was not "all OT saints" that went to Heaven the third day from Calvary's events, and notice that those saints were not in Heaven before the events thereof either (which just disproved your assertion). Notice the text itself:

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

It was a localized (around Jerusalem only) and special resurrection (many, not all). These are called the "firstfruits", and scripture does not say how many were resurrected, but in saying that they are firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:20,23), it can only be a 'portion' of those 'saints' in all the graves.

Yes, Abraham was having a conversation with a soul in hell. No there was no physical body. It does not matter who teaches what. Only what God's Word says. The body is destroyed, the soul is conscious in death.

The first fruits did not remain in Abraham's bosom in part. They all left and after 3.5 days entered Paradise under the alter. The same place each human, who dies in Christ, one by one goes. No one could enter until the Cross.

They are not asleep but as ghost are waiting for their glorified bodies. This is spiritual reality. It has nothing to do with physical death, and the returning to dust of the fleshly body. Death and sleep is the physical side, not the spiritual. The spiritual has no need for death and sleep. Not even in hell.

 

[timtofly]

Yes, but 'when' Paul also mentioned:

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

The Lord is not dead, but alive. Thus in death, is the unclothed state or sleeping state, in which we are not yet "present" with the Lord. You must take all of the counsel of Paul together, as he was citing Job.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Isa_34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.​

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.​

I am not denying any of these verses. The point that the thief could not go Abraham's bosom was that no one was there. Jesus knew that. The thief was the first one to go to Paradise, because he died after Jesus and his body was still on the cross. His soul went immediately to Paradise. The next one to die, that we know of, was Stephen, being stoned to death. His soul immediately went to Paradise as well.

The OT saints, their souls came out of the graves, it was a resurrection. But most did not have a body to raise. No one gets a body, until the opening of the 5th seal. And as Paul said, the 6th seal will be immediately following the 5th seal. The OT saints did go to Paradise 3.5 days after the Atonement on the Cross. They went with Jesus like He told Mary that morning, would happen.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The thief was the first one to go to Paradise ...

Enoch, Elijah and Moses all got there way before Calvary, and the thief is not yet there (as he hasn't had a resurrection yet).

 

[Yeshua1]

The Son of God is always "Michael" (Who is as like unto God (the Father)), as the Son is the "express image" of the Father. "Michael" is just another designation for the Son. Why persons get upset at that, can only be due to the confusion brought in by the Roman system and the WTS/JW system.

It is not like the WTS/JW theology where the Son turns off/on 'Michael-ness'. It is not like the Roman system where 'Michael' is a created being.

It is difficult for some to acknowledge these things, but if you can accept it you ought to, but if not, God is patient, and will explain it in the hereafter to those who are found in Christ Jesus. Therefore, as God is patient, so will I be toward those who cannot yet see these things. I do not think anyone damned who cannot yet see it, even if others think I am who can.

Michael is NEVER called Jesus in the scriptures! Michael is one of the chief princes, an archangel, and Jesus is God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, but 'when' Paul also mentioned:

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

The Lord is not dead, but alive. Thus in death, is the unclothed state or sleeping state, in which we are not yet "present" with the Lord. You must take all of the counsel of Paul together, as he was citing Job.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Isa_34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.​

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.​

Physical dead are awake in heaven , see Revelation, as they are asking God to avenge their deaths!

 

[MarysSon]

If you want to leave the conversation, that is your prerogative. I can see why you would want to though. As you will.

It's not that - it's just that your SDA indoctrination runs FAR too deep to have an intelligent, objective conversation.
I just see it as a waste of time.

 

[Yeshua1]

It's not that - it's just that your SDA indoctrination goes FAR too deep to have an intelligent, objective conversation.
I just see it as a waste of time.

may the Holy Spirit open his mind and heart to true Gospel!

 

[timtofly]

Enoch, Elijah and Moses all got there way before Calvary, and the thief is not yet there (as he hasn't had a resurrection yet).

Well you can take that up with Jesus and your interpretation. Jesus did not lie, and the thief was in Paradise that day.

As for the two witnesses Moses and Enoch/Elijah they are the 4 beast. They come and go as God commands. They and the 24 elders, may or may not be in Paradise. They are listed and appear separate from the rest of humanity in Paradise.

 

[robycop3]

The Son of God is always "Michael" (Who is as like unto God (the Father)), as the Son is the "express image" of the Father. "Michael" is just another designation for the Son. Why persons get upset at that, can only be due to the confusion brought in by the Roman system and the WTS/JW system.

It is not like the WTS/JW theology where the Son turns off/on 'Michael-ness'. It is not like the Roman system where 'Michael' is a created being.

It is difficult for some to acknowledge these things, but if you can accept it you ought to, but if not, God is patient, and will explain it in the hereafter to those who are found in Christ Jesus. Therefore, as God is patient, so will I be toward those who cannot yet see these things. I do not think anyone damned who cannot yet see it, even if others think I am who can.

Jesus is NOT Michael, as Jesus is Divine, is God's Son, and is Himself also God, while Michael is the chief archangel, not Divine, and subject to the Holy Trinity. We showed you the Scripture proving Michael is not Jesus.

To say Jesus = Michael, Michael = Jesus is HERESY !

 

[Alofa Atu]

... the Holy Trinity. ...

Apologies, but I am not Roman Catholic, nor adhere to its theological position therein. If you do not mean their position, would you define the words you use, most especially the last one?

I believe in the Holy Heavenly Trio.