Chosen in Him Before the Foundation of the world

[Barry Johnson]

We are only Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ) question is : When do we become in Him ? I believe this is not before we are born . We are only in him when we believe.

 

[Dave G]

We are only Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 )

I agree.

When do we become in Him ?

I'd say that your next statement is the answer to this question...

I believe this is not before we are born . We are only in him when we believe.

Again, I agree.

However, because God chose a person in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) that choice is unerringly carried out in a person's lifetime ( 2 Peter 3:9 ) when God places one of His elect in front of the preaching of His word:

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

So, "point of belief" is when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer ( Ephesians 1:13 ) and seals them unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 4:30 ).
Admittedly, I've had to re-think this over the years, and I actually agree that a person is not "in Christ", or actually in the body of Christ until the Spirit does His work and His elect are called in this life.
I see this when I read of Paul stating here:

" Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." ( Romans 16:7).


As for their names being written in the Book of Life?
That is from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).

Christ's sheep have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).
It was not prepared for anyone else but His sheep, His elect.
Christ was foreordained to come and offer Himself on the cross from the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20 ) for them and no one else ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ).

Why does one believe?
Because they are Christ's sheep ( Matthew 13:10-11, John 6:37-44, John 6:65, John 8:43-47, John 17:2, Philippians 1:29 ).
Why does one not believe?
Because they are not "of" His sheep ( John 10:26 ).

Why does one reject the preaching of the cross and think that it is foolishness?
Because they are of "them that perish".
Why does one believe the preaching of the cross and to them it is the power of God?
Because they are saved ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

The Gospel truly is the power of God to everyone that believes ( Romans 1:16 )...
But there is a reason that we have believed on Christ, and God's word answers it.

Therefore, one who is chosen in Him before the foundation of the world and chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), truly is the recipient of the greatest gift known to man:


An everlasting relationship with a God who loved them, even when they were dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ).

 

[Barry Johnson]

I agree.

I'd say that your next statement is the answer to this question...

Again, I agree.

However, because God chose a person in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) that choice is unerringly carried out in a person's lifetime ( 2 Peter 3:9 ) when God places one of His elect in front of the preaching of His word:

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

So, "point of belief" is when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer ( Ephesians 1:13 ) and seals them unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 4:30 ).
Admittedly, I've had to re-think this over the years, and I actually agree that a person is not "in Christ", or actually in the body of Christ until the Spirit does His work and His elect are called in this life.
I see this when I read of Paul stating here:

" Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." ( Romans 16:7).


As for their names being written in the Book of Life?
That is from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).

Christ's sheep have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).
It was not prepared for anyone else but His sheep, His elect.
Christ was foreordained to come and offer Himself on the cross from the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20 ) for them and no one else ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ).

Why does one believe?
Because they are Christ's sheep ( Matthew 13:10-11, John 6:37-44, John 6:65, John 8:43-47, John 17:2, Philippians 1:29 ).
Why does one not believe?
Because they are not "of" His sheep ( John 10:26 ).

Why does one reject the preaching of the cross and think that it is foolishness?
Because they are of "them that perish".
Why does one believe the preaching of the cross and to them it is the power of God?
Because they are saved ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

The Gospel truly is the power of God to everyone that believes ( Romans 1:16 )...
But there is a reason that we have believed on Christ, and God's word answers it.

Therefore, one who is chosen in Him before the foundation of the world and chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), truly is the recipient of the greatest gift known to man:


An everlasting relationship with a God who loved them, even when they were dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ).

what are they chosen for in ephesians 1 ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

what are they chosen for in ephesians 1 ?

chosen in him = to be holy and blameless.
Jesus is the only pre existing one before the foundation of the world. All those ( in time ) that become in him are ' the chosen 'to be holy and blameless. Then these are then predestined to the adoption which is the redemption of the body . Ephesians 1.5 makes it clear that predestination is not lost people to be saved but saved people are predestined to glorification.

 

[Barry Johnson]

chosen in him = to be holy and blameless.
Jesus is the only pre existing one before the foundation of the world. All those ( in time ) that become in him are ' the chosen 'to be holy and blameless. Then these are then predestined to the adoption which is the redemption of the body . Ephesians 1.5 makes it clear that predestination is not lost people to be saved but saved people are predestined to glorification.

11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
notice no one in any capacity could be in any sense in Jesus or that they will be in christ's because they have been hand picked before existing .It clearly says here that they were out of Christ before believing.

 

[Barry Johnson]

what are they chosen for in ephesians 1 ?

1¶Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2¶Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Paul is talking to saints of course they are already saved .
They are chosen to be blameless and Holy .
They are predestined to be glorified .
When you get put into an eternal being you are receiving all the blessings , we are in Him who is the only pre existing being before the foundation of the world. The verse does not say ' chosen to be in him '.
Calvernism, the paradigm , forces people to latch onto buzz words like ' chosen , elect , predestined , ect but the context does not say what the 'calvernist doctrines teach . Roman's 8 is the same . We are predestined to being conformed to his image. This is not lost people predestined to be saved but saved people who freely believe the Gospel when they hear it are then predestined to future glorification, which is being conformed and to the adoption, the redemption of the body rom 8.23

 

[Dave G]

what are they chosen for in ephesians 1 ?

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

4) God has chosen the believer "in Christ" so that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
5) God has predestinated ( set as destiny ) them to be adopted as His children by Jesus Christ, to Himself...
According to the good pleasure of His will;
Not our own ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
6) To what end? The praise of the glory of His grace...
In that grace, believers were made accepted in the beloved, by Him.

We do not make ourselves accepted in the body of Christ by our own actions ( Titus 3:5-7 ).
He did it.

All of it, start to finish.

 

[Dave G]

Then these are then predestined to the adoption which is the redemption of the body .

The adoption is to be the children of God, body soul and spirit...
Not just our body.

Ephesians 1.5 makes it clear that predestination is not lost people to be saved but saved people are predestined to glorification.

Agreed.
It is, to those God has decided to save from among all of rebellious mankind.

Saved people, whose names were written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ) and whom God foreknew, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ), are indeed predestinated to glorification.

notice no one in any capacity could be in any sense in Jesus or that they will be in christ's because they have been hand picked before existing

They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
This agrees with John 6:37-44, John 6:65, and John 17:2 which show that only those to whom it is given by the Father and drawn, will come to Christ and believe on Him.

They were chosen by God, and He caused them to approach Him, spiritually ( Psalms 65:4 ).
Please see John 6:37-44 for what it is to "come to Christ".

 

[Dave G]

They are chosen to be blameless and Holy .

Amen.

They are predestined to be glorified .

Amen once more.

When you get put into an eternal being you are receiving all the blessings

Amen yet again.
Believers are put into the spiritual body of Christ, become in union with Him by His indwelling Spirit, when God does His work of calling.

The verse does not say ' chosen to be in him '.

I agree.
It says, "chosen in Him".
When?
Before the foundation of the world.

When God decides to do something, it always comes to pass.
Therefore, if someone is chosen in Him, then they will believe to the saving of the soul.

Christ will lose none of His sheep ( John 10:28-29 ).

 

[Dave G]

Calvernism, the paradigm , forces people to latch onto buzz words like ' chosen , elect , predestined , ect but the context does not say what the 'calvernist doctrines teach .

Respectfully, I read the Bible for myself and I don't much care, ultimately, what John Calvin taught.
Neither do I care what John Wesley or John R. Rice taught.

They do not stand between my Saviour and His words.

Roman's 8 is the same . We are predestined to being conformed to his image.

Amen.

That is what Romans 8:29 clearly states...
Predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.

Now, using the Bible alone to define the word ( without bringing that definition in from somewhere else ), what does "foreknew" mean to you?

This is not lost people predestined to be saved but saved people who freely believe the Gospel when they hear it are then predestined to future glorification, which is being conformed and to the adoption, the redemption of the body rom 8.23

Amen!
All of God's elect, the saved, the "whosoever believeth", those whom God has opened their hearts so that they attend to the words of God spoken of by preachers ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )...
Freely believe the Gospel when they "hear" it ( Matthew 11:15, John 8:43-47, Romans 10:8-10, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14 ).

Their names are written in Heaven ( Luke 10:20, Hebrews 12:22-23 ), which is why God's purposes according to election will stand ( Romans 9:6-29 ).
Moreover, they were foreknown.

Because of that, the foreknown are predestinated, called, justifed and glorified ( Romans 8:30 ).
And only the foreknown.

No one outside of the foreknown was predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.
No one outside of the foreknown will be called, justified or glorified.
That is what the language of the passage clearly states.

For whom ( individuals ) He foreknew...
All the things which follow are limited to the foreknown...
The ones that the Father gave to the Son ( John 6:37, John 17:2 ).


May God bless you in your studies, sir.

 

[Barry Johnson]

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

4) God has chosen the believer "in Christ" so that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
5) God has predestinated ( set as destiny ) them to be adopted as His children by Jesus Christ, to Himself...
According to the good pleasure of His will;
Not our own ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
6) To what end? The praise of the glory of His grace...
In that grace, believers were made accepted in the beloved, by Him.

We do not make ourselves accepted in the body of Christ by our own actions ( Titus 3:5-7 ).
He did it.

All of it, start to finish.

The verse does not say " God has chosen the believer in Christ " This would be imposing the calvernist paradigm ( God the father gives the Son a love gift ) onto the text.
upon believing we receive the ' spirit of adoption ' not ' The adoption , so The adoption hasn't happened yet for any believer . Eph 1 .5 is the predestination of a future Adoption .
' It pleased God by the foolishness of the preaching of the gospel to save those that believe . In Calvernism it's taught that we lost even the ability to even believe the Gosepl upon hearing . But the bible clearly shows we can believe the truth so as to be saved .
When Jesus says the Father Draws ,this is before the cross .Before the cross and the giving of the Holy spirit which convinces the world of sin righteousness and judgement and Jesus ' will draw all men ' .The drawing is those disciples and those sheep who have been following ( hearing ) God before Jesus appears . This is not some Gnostic secrect drawing but the ones already following Yahweh before Jesus appears on the scene .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Respectfully, I read the Bible for myself and I don't much care, ultimately, what John Calvin taught.
Neither do I care what John Wesley or John R. Rice taught.

They do not stand between my Saviour and His words.

Amen.

That is what Romans 8:29 clearly states...
Predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.

Now, using the Bible alone to define the word ( without bringing that definition in from somewhere else ), what does "foreknew" mean to you?

Amen!
All of God's elect, the saved, the "whosoever believeth", those whom God has opened their hearts so that they attend to the words of God spoken of by preachers ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )...
Freely believe the Gospel when they "hear" it ( Matthew 11:15, John 8:43-47, Romans 10:8-10, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14 ).

Their names are written in Heaven ( Luke 10:20, Hebrews 12:22-23 ), which is why God's purposes according to election will stand ( Romans 9:6-29 ).
Moreover, they were foreknown.

Because of that, the foreknown are predestinated, called, justifed and glorified ( Romans 8:30 ).
And only the foreknown.

No one outside of the foreknown was predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.
No one outside of the foreknown will be called, justified or glorified.
That is what the language of the passage clearly states.

For whom ( individuals ) He foreknew...
All the things which follow are limited to the foreknown...
The ones that the Father gave to the Son ( John 6:37, John 17:2 ).


May God bless you in your studies, sir.

Apologies for the way I'm responding I'm not used to this format yet lol

 

[Barry Johnson]

Apologies for the way I'm responding I'm not used to this format yet lol

We are not conformed to the image of Jesus when we believe . Just like The adoption ( not the ' spirit of adoption ) it is Future . They both refer to Glorification .
So both Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 are talking about believers who after they believe the Gospel are then predestined to certain future Glorification ( the redemption of the body ,the full adoption as sons . Being born Again places us as joint heirs ( As sons with all the blessing s ect with the ' spirit of adoption ' as a Ernest until the full manifestation yet future ( We cannot lose salvation because we are predestined to glorification ) No verse ever says God chose non created human being who is unborn to be awoken in time later as a frozen chosen when they hear the Gosepl . Nor did God look down the corridors of time and hand select those he saw would believe . Both of these systems come out of Amsterdam but starting with Augustine's philosophy.
foreknowledge in Romans 8 is simply all those that God knows in the sense of an intimate knowledge . So from Gods future perspective ( As God is outside time ) We are only intimately ' known ' to God after we believe . That's why in Mathew 7 Jesus will say " I never knew you " . But in Galations it says we are ' known ' of God after we believe . So the order is this . We believe the Gospel ( As we did not lose the ability to respond to God in the fall ) then we sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. We are placed as sons , we receive the spirit of adoption , but not The adoption as that is Future . All of this is done after we believe . Believing is not a work .

 

[Barry Johnson]

We are not conformed to the image of Jesus when we believe . Just like The adoption ( not the ' spirit of adoption ) it is Future . They both refer to Glorification .
So both Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 are talking about believers who after they believe the Gospel are then predestined to certain future Glorification ( the redemption of the body ,the full adoption as sons . Being born Again places us as joint heirs ( As sons with all the blessing s ect with the ' spirit of adoption ' as a Ernest until the full manifestation yet future ( We cannot lose salvation because we are predestined to glorification ) No verse ever says God chose non created human being who is unborn to be awoken in time later as a frozen chosen when they hear the Gosepl . Nor did God look down the corridors of time and hand select those he saw would believe . Both of these systems come out of Amsterdam but starting with Augustine's philosophy.
foreknowledge in Romans 8 is simply all those that God knows in the sense of an intimate knowledge . So from Gods future perspective ( As God is outside time ) We are only intimately ' known ' to God after we believe . That's why in Mathew 7 Jesus will say " I never knew you " . But in Galations it says we are ' known ' of God after we believe . So the order is this . We believe the Gospel ( As we did not lose the ability to respond to God in the fall ) then we sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. We are placed as sons , we receive the spirit of adoption , but not The adoption as that is Future . All of this is done after we believe . Believing is not a work .

1 Peter 1.20 of course Jesus being pre-existing was before the foundation of the world fore ordained . When some things have been Fore ordained it does not mean all things are . This is inductive reasoning .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Amen.

Amen once more.

Amen yet again.
Believers are put into the spiritual body of Christ, become in union with Him by His indwelling Spirit, when God does His work of calling.

I agree.
It says, "chosen in Him".
When?
Before the foundation of the world.

When God decides to do something, it always comes to pass.
Therefore, if someone is chosen in Him, then they will believe to the saving of the soul.

Christ will lose none of His sheep ( John 10:28-29 ).

again we are chosen for something not to be saved . So all those that are in him after they believe receive and are to the n to be holy and blameless .

 

[Yeshua1]

We are only Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ) question is : When do we become in Him ? I believe this is not before we are born . We are only in him when we believe.

We believe Because God already has chosen us in the beloved!

 

[Dave G]

The verse does not say " God has chosen the believer in Christ "

It very plainly says, "chosen in Him".

However, it does not state the rest of the details in those words...
Which is where other parts of God's word come in and help to better define things.

Scripture "interpreting" and defining Scripture for itself.

This would be imposing the calvernist paradigm ( God the father gives the Son a love gift ) onto the text.

The understanding of this is based on other significant things that God's word has to say about His people.

If the Bible cannot be read and understood contextually as an entire book of letters, then what we have are a mess of stand-alone passages whose statements are used as proof texts...
Instead of God using men to write things that can all be put together and make sense overall, he used men to write contradictory statements that His children can never understand completely and that do not fit together.
I don't believe that for a minute.



So, this is the way I read it...

I bring in statements like what John 6:64-65 are making, and I understand the believer to be "the elect" ( Romans 8:33 and many other places ).
I understand that the "righteous" in the Psalms are those that have been made righteous by the blood of His Son and given Christ's imputed righteousness ( Romans 4 ).
The "just" are those that have been justified in Romans 5.
The "wicked" are those who have not believed on Christ, are not God's people and have never been born again.

The "wise" and "prudent" in the Proverbs are "the righteous" in the Psalms, are the "saved" / "beloved" / "elect" / "believers" in the New Testament.

Therefore, those that are "chosen in Him" are the "whosoever believeth" from John 3:15-18, while those that the wrath of God abides on, are the "them that are perishing" in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
Similarly, "whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world" in Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8= " hate the light neither comes to the light" from John 3:19-20.

Again, "elect" = "lively stones" - "children of God".
"Beloved" = " All that the Father giveth me" in John 6:37.

"Saved" from anywhere in the Bible = "foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified" in Romans 8:29-30.
"Children of wrath" in Ephesians 2:3 = "them that perish" in 1 Corinthians 1:18.

I'm not imposing anything on the text...
I'm believing the words in each sentence ( "verse" ) and putting all the sentences together into their respective "paragraphs" and then understanding all of it based on the whole.

When God makes a statement over in one place, I take that understanding of the words He gave me there, and it sticks in my mind...
I then collect all of it together and it gives me a comprehensive picture of what God has to say on any given subject.

 

[Dave G]

again we are chosen for something not to be saved

God's word says differently Barry.

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

According to the above, God's people were chosen to salvation through two things:

1) Sanctification of the spirit.
2) Belief of the truth.

Those are the two things that are involved with a person coming to Christ in genuine faith and belief from the heart.
A changed heart.

That's the Bible, not "Calvinism".

I don't look at God's word through the lens of what Calvin taught...
I look at God's word for what it states and what is written.

I then accept whatever is written, knowing that God will help me to make sense of all of it in His time and the more I study it, as He tells me to ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

 

[Barry Johnson]

God's word says differently Barry.

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

According to the above, God's people were chosen to salvation through two things:

1) Sanctification of the spirit.
2) Belief of the truth.

Those are the two things that are involved with a person coming to Christ in genuine faith and belief from the heart.
A changed heart.

That's the Bible, not "Calvinism".

I don't look at God's word through the lens of what Calvin taught...
I look at God's word for what it states and what is written.

I then accept whatever is written, knowing that God will help me to make sense of all of it in His time and the more I study it, as He tells me to ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

I appreciate the responses ,iron sharpens act .
My point is about Ephesians and that no where does it say we are ' chosen to be saved ' So when it says chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world ,we ask '' for what ' ? And when are we in Him . If it said what reformed thinking imposes on the text then it should say ' chosen to be in him ' or ' chosen to be saved in him ' .It's the same in Romans 8 . Both systems ( Jacob / Wesley and Augustine / Beza / ) impose an idea that before the world was created ( including humans of course ) that God chose individuals to be saved either through determinism ( Augustine's Gnosticism / Calvernism) or Foreknowledge ( the Arminain version ) Now of course God could have done either . The point is the scriptures do not say this happened at all .
When you say ' the Father Draws to the son ' this is not applicable now as that was how God was bringing those to Jesus before the cross and before the giving of the Holy spirit . Let me Guess . You probably believe everyone in the old testament was saved the same way as today , that they were born again . This is not the case as the Holy spirit had not yet been given prior to the resurrection .

 

[Dave G]

My point is about Ephesians and that no where does it say we are ' chosen to be saved '

But 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says it.

If it said what reformed thinking imposes on the text then it should say ' chosen to be in him '

I'm not a "reformed thinker".
I simply believe the words on the page.

I actually come from a background of being an Independent Baptist for over 25 years, Barry, so I know both "sides" very well...
"Calvinist" and "non-Calvinist";
Or, if you prefer, "Arminian" and "non-Arminian".

The "Arminian" / "non-Calvinist" / "Molinist"/ "Semi-Pelagian" doesn't teach that a person believes because they are saved ( Philippians 1:29, John 6:37-44, John 6:64-65 ), and does not believe because they are not saved ( John 10:26 ).
They teach that a person is saved because they believe, and that a person is not saved because they do not believe.

But I digress..
The text of Ephesians 1:4 itself does not say it.

My understanding of who a believer is, based on other parts of God's word, is that everyone who is a believer was chosen just as the Thessalonians were.
They were also predestinated to the adoption of children, just as Ephesians 1:5 states.

This was done according to the good pleasure of His will, not our own.