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What is "Death"??

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Derf B, Jun 24, 2020.

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  1. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Well, I guess that settles it! Since you know your view is the correct one, we can now come to you for all doctrinal questions! And to think the Apostles were so doctrinally deficient, that they had to meet together to determine what the gentile church should do.


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  2. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    I’m sure anyone can conjure up a spiritualization to fit the bill, but then anyone could also conjure up the opposite spiritualization.


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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Your sarcasm is noted. One believes what one understands to be true. We can discuss where and why we disagree.
    Of those two common views. The belief in the immortality of the soul is an interpration at best. At worst the fact the Bible does not teaching it. The Bible does teach the mortality of the soul. The Bible also teaches the eternal torment of the lost.

    Therefore a correct Biblical doctrine teaches the mortality of the soul and the eternal suffering of the lost. Now how one interprets that is a matter of interpration. Error either denies the mortality of the soul or denies the eternal suffering of the lost.
     
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Burial refers to the place where the physically dead body is placed. Obviously the "spirit/soul" of those unsaved go to Hades.
    My view, to repeat, has the Spirit/Soul as one entity, so when either the human spirit or soul is mentioned, both as meant. Thus Luke 16:22 does indeed refer to the soul.
    The place in view is called "Abraham's bosom." This place of comfort could be seen from "Hades" where the rich man was taken.
    I do not believe our human spirits need to "eat" in order to maintain existence. However, it appears spiritual beings can indeed enjoy spiritual food (Revelation 19:9)
    The "time" is before the second coming since Hades is emptied out for the Great White Throne.
    I have no problem with saying "Abraham's bosom" may not be a part of Hades. All we know is it is described as "adjacent" and "visible" (at least with spiritual eyes).
     
    #44 Van, Jun 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  5. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    I saw neither “soul” nor “spirit” mentioned in Luke 16:22. Can you show me where?


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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is, in my view, a non-sense to interpret at Abraham's side, "Abraham's bosom" as a whole place in Hades. Now what the majority of commentators and cross references fail to note is what Moses wrote about the the fire, Deuteronomy 32:22 and David, Psalms 86:13, the place but not the fire being mentioned.
     
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  7. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    I’ve been looking for other sources from around or before Jesus’ time, and I can’t find any. The closest was a supposed article from Josephus, that was practically a verbatim recitation if the conditions from Jesus story. But the authorship, and therefore the date, is questionable.


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  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If you want to engage on that level, I have no interest.
     
  9. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying you don’t want to engage when someone points out a flaw in your arguments, when someone disagrees with your position, or when someone suggests you are adding to scripture?

    I’m really just wanting to get beyond the standard narrative far enough to read the words of Jesus for what they say, not for what other people say they say. In the end, I may come back to the same position as that standard narrative. But whether I do or not, I feel I will have a better grasp on what I believe and why.


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  10. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Moses was talking about what would happen to the nation of Israel. It might also be applicable to hellfire, but that’s not the context of the passage.


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  11. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I am not an occultist, I guess if that is your intention, I cannot stop you. God will be the judge.
     
  12. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    In the image of God, our spirit is with God, our body temporal, with Christ. Our soul is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Do you not separate God and His Holy Spirit?
     
  13. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    conjure - summon into action or bring into existence, often as if by magic

    Doesn’t require occultism.


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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Any time someone starts with "are you saying" what follows is always a self serving misrepresentation. I have lost all interest in your views.
    1) The standard narrative is that when we physically die, our spirit/soul goes either to Hades or if we have been saved, to be present with the Lord.
    2) The standard narrative is that Hades is the temporary holding place where the soul/spirits of the lost are kept until the resurrection of the dead.
    3) The standard narrative is that prior to the Great White Throne judgment, all the unsaved are resurrected (the resurrection of the dead), with their spirit/souls being united with their physical bodies, such that they stand before the judgement seat. Then all the unsaved are cast into the Lake of Fire where both the body and soul can be destroyed.

    No need to muddy those waters.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sir, please do not misrepresent my view. For example God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each is always God. The Persons of the Trinity are separate in function, but not in divine essence.
     
  16. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    What does magic require when it brings something into existence that does not exist?
     
  17. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Then why combine the spirit and soul, when clearly the spirit is with God? Do we currently have a glorified body that covers up our sinful flesh? Adam died, that day. Spiritually, meaning no more spiritual body.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Show me a place where the spirit and soul act separately? If our "spirit" goes to be with the Lord, so does our soul. If our spirit goes to Hades, so does our soul. The three part belief system is mistaken.
     
  19. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    We are separated from our spirit at conception. We do not have a glorified body. That is why we are not fully in God’s image. Our spirit is not dead. It is with God and His Holy Spirit is with us.

    Our three parts is not a belief system. Stating your soul and spirit are combined is a belief system. In fact in philosophy it is defined, and people debate the validity of their respective belief systems.
     
  20. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Yes, that’s what the Pope said to Martin Luther


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