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What is "Death"??

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Derf B

Active Member
I am presenting what I know to be the correct Biblical position.

The two common views are: The belief in the immortality soul and so etermal torment of the lost. The belief in the mortality of the soul and so the annihilation of the lost.

Well, I guess that settles it! Since you know your view is the correct one, we can now come to you for all doctrinal questions! And to think the Apostles were so doctrinally deficient, that they had to meet together to determine what the gentile church should do.


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Derf B

Active Member
It is found in Genesis 3 when Adam disobeyed God. The robe of white was removed if you keep the same term from Revelation 6:9-11

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.

When this robe was removed Adam and Eve were ashamed, naked, and hid from God. From Adam to the 5th seal, very soon in the future, no human could put the robe of white on. That is our spirit. There is no verse about a spirit that dies. That is why the spirit has been with God. If there are verses about a spirit, you have to use context. The spirit was the whole image of God. Genesis 5:3
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

We see that the first son Adam had after loosing God's image, was in Adam's own image. Spiritual death is not only separation from God, it is separation of this robe of white, that is the image of God.

On the mount of transfiguration do we see the affects, Luke 9:28-31

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

The spirit is with God, because that is our glorified image from God. It is spirit, because God sends His own Holy Spirit as a replacement. The controversy of the start of a human seems not settled. Psalms 139:13-16
13 For you fashioned my inmost being,
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I thank you because I am awesomely made, wonderfully; your works are wonders — I know this very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from you
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes could see me as an embryo,
but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped
before any of them existed.

Even the psalmist understood that as an embryo God was in control. God sealed us with His Holy Spirit when we ourselves were born as sinners. God already knew our whole life. Our spirit was witness in heaven as well to all that we are. God could use any means to directly communicate with us. I think it is through our spirit. Romans 8:15-23
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We see that the two spirits are in communication. Verse 19-21 says we long to be sons of God in our full form. Not only is the body redeemed, but the soul itself will be joined by our glorified spirit.

Now we know this fleshly body cannot enter heaven or Paradise. It will return to dust. But Paul claims our soul will also be changed when the robe of white is put on. We shall all be changed. The dead first in the 5th seal. Then when the Lamb appears in the 6th seal, those alive in Christ will receive our robe of white (glorified bodies).

The seals opened the Lamb's book of life. The book provided by the Atonement on the Cross, that was written before the foundation of the world. As stated, the OT saints could not enter Paradise until the cross. They were in Abraham's bosom. But at the Atonement, they were set free from the sting of death. They now make up those souls under the altar.

I’m sure anyone can conjure up a spiritualization to fit the bill, but then anyone could also conjure up the opposite spiritualization.


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37818

Well-Known Member
. . we can now come to you for all doctrinal questions!
Your sarcasm is noted. One believes what one understands to be true. We can discuss where and why we disagree.
Of those two common views. The belief in the immortality of the soul is an interpration at best. At worst the fact the Bible does not teaching it. The Bible does teach the mortality of the soul. The Bible also teaches the eternal torment of the lost.

Therefore a correct Biblical doctrine teaches the mortality of the soul and the eternal suffering of the lost. Now how one interprets that is a matter of interpration. Error either denies the mortality of the soul or denies the eternal suffering of the lost.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thanks for the reply, Van.
I’m wondering if even the spirit/soul part has been given too much attention. Your reference to Luke 16 is the main place people go to for support for it, but doesn’t mention the soul at all. In fact, it describes 2 results of death—burial and no burial. It describes 2 places, Hades and a place on the other side of a gulf and higher up, probably with eating and drinking (Abraham’s bosom might mean they were reclining at a meal table, similar to John being in Jesus’ bosom at the last supper. And it would show the full reversal of fortunes, compared to the earlier picture in life.)

Do our spirits eat? What if this is a picture of the time after the resurrection of their bodies, at least parabolicly.

As you can see, I’m also questioning the idea of Abraham’s bosom being a section of Hades, since the story doesn’t specify that 1. It’s a place, and 2. That it’s in Hades.


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Burial refers to the place where the physically dead body is placed. Obviously the "spirit/soul" of those unsaved go to Hades.
My view, to repeat, has the Spirit/Soul as one entity, so when either the human spirit or soul is mentioned, both as meant. Thus Luke 16:22 does indeed refer to the soul.
The place in view is called "Abraham's bosom." This place of comfort could be seen from "Hades" where the rich man was taken.
I do not believe our human spirits need to "eat" in order to maintain existence. However, it appears spiritual beings can indeed enjoy spiritual food (Revelation 19:9)
The "time" is before the second coming since Hades is emptied out for the Great White Throne.
I have no problem with saying "Abraham's bosom" may not be a part of Hades. All we know is it is described as "adjacent" and "visible" (at least with spiritual eyes).
 
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Derf B

Active Member
Burial refers to the place where the physically dead body is placed. Obviously the "spirit/soul" of those unsaved go to Hades.
My view, to repeat, has the Spirit/Soul as one entity, so when either the human spirit or soul is mentioned, both as meant. Thus Luke 16:22 does indeed refer to the soul.
The place in view is called "Abraham's bosom." This place of comfort could be seen from "Hades" where the rich man was taken.
Scripture of course says "spirits" do not eat. The "time" is before the second coming since Hades is emptied out for the Great White Throne.
I have no problem with saying "Abraham's bosom" may not be a part of Hades. All we know is it is described as "adjacent" and "visible" (at least with spiritual eyes).

I saw neither “soul” nor “spirit” mentioned in Luke 16:22. Can you show me where?


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37818

Well-Known Member
The place in view is called "Abraham's bosom."
It is, in my view, a non-sense to interpret at Abraham's side, "Abraham's bosom" as a whole place in Hades. Now what the majority of commentators and cross references fail to note is what Moses wrote about the the fire, Deuteronomy 32:22 and David, Psalms 86:13, the place but not the fire being mentioned.
 

Derf B

Active Member
It is, in my view, a non-sense to interpret at Abraham's side, "Abraham's bosom" as a whole place in Hades. Now what the majority of commentators and cross references fail to note is what Moses wrote about the the fire, Deuteronomy 32:22 and David, Psalms 86:13, the place but not the fire being mentioned.

I’ve been looking for other sources from around or before Jesus’ time, and I can’t find any. The closest was a supposed article from Josephus, that was practically a verbatim recitation if the conditions from Jesus story. But the authorship, and therefore the date, is questionable.


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Derf B

Active Member
If you want to engage on that level, I have no interest.

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying you don’t want to engage when someone points out a flaw in your arguments, when someone disagrees with your position, or when someone suggests you are adding to scripture?

I’m really just wanting to get beyond the standard narrative far enough to read the words of Jesus for what they say, not for what other people say they say. In the end, I may come back to the same position as that standard narrative. But whether I do or not, I feel I will have a better grasp on what I believe and why.


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Derf B

Active Member
It is, in my view, a non-sense to interpret at Abraham's side, "Abraham's bosom" as a whole place in Hades. Now what the majority of commentators and cross references fail to note is what Moses wrote about the the fire, Deuteronomy 32:22 and David, Psalms 86:13, the place but not the fire being mentioned.

Moses was talking about what would happen to the nation of Israel. It might also be applicable to hellfire, but that’s not the context of the passage.


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timtofly

Well-Known Member
I’m sure anyone can conjure up a spiritualization to fit the bill, but then anyone could also conjure up the opposite spiritualization.


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I am not an occultist, I guess if that is your intention, I cannot stop you. God will be the judge.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
Burial refers to the place where the physically dead body is placed. Obviously the "spirit/soul" of those unsaved go to Hades.
My view, to repeat, has the Spirit/Soul as one entity, so when either the human spirit or soul is mentioned, both as meant. Thus Luke 16:22 does indeed refer to the soul.
The place in view is called "Abraham's bosom." This place of comfort could be seen from "Hades" where the rich man was taken.
I do not believe our human spirits need to "eat" in order to maintain existence. However, it appears spiritual beings can indeed enjoy spiritual food (Revelation 19:9)
The "time" is before the second coming since Hades is emptied out for the Great White Throne.
I have no problem with saying "Abraham's bosom" may not be a part of Hades. All we know is it is described as "adjacent" and "visible" (at least with spiritual eyes).
In the image of God, our spirit is with God, our body temporal, with Christ. Our soul is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Do you not separate God and His Holy Spirit?
 

Derf B

Active Member
I am not an occultist, I guess if that is your intention, I cannot stop you. God will be the judge.

conjure - summon into action or bring into existence, often as if by magic

Doesn’t require occultism.


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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying you don’t want to engage when someone points out a flaw in your arguments, when someone disagrees with your position, or when someone suggests you are adding to scripture?

I’m really just wanting to get beyond the standard narrative far enough to read the words of Jesus for what they say, not for what other people say they say. In the end, I may come back to the same position as that standard narrative. But whether I do or not, I feel I will have a better grasp on what I believe and why.
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Any time someone starts with "are you saying" what follows is always a self serving misrepresentation. I have lost all interest in your views.
1) The standard narrative is that when we physically die, our spirit/soul goes either to Hades or if we have been saved, to be present with the Lord.
2) The standard narrative is that Hades is the temporary holding place where the soul/spirits of the lost are kept until the resurrection of the dead.
3) The standard narrative is that prior to the Great White Throne judgment, all the unsaved are resurrected (the resurrection of the dead), with their spirit/souls being united with their physical bodies, such that they stand before the judgement seat. Then all the unsaved are cast into the Lake of Fire where both the body and soul can be destroyed.

No need to muddy those waters.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In the image of God, our spirit is with God, our body temporal, with Christ. Our soul is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Do you not separate God and His Holy Spirit?
Sir, please do not misrepresent my view. For example God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each is always God. The Persons of the Trinity are separate in function, but not in divine essence.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
conjure - summon into action or bring into existence, often as if by magic

Doesn’t require occultism.


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What does magic require when it brings something into existence that does not exist?
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
Sir, please do not misrepresent my view. For example God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each is always God. The Persons of the Trinity are separate in function, but not in divine essence.
Then why combine the spirit and soul, when clearly the spirit is with God? Do we currently have a glorified body that covers up our sinful flesh? Adam died, that day. Spiritually, meaning no more spiritual body.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Then why combine the spirit and soul, when clearly the spirit is with God? Do we currently have a glorified body that covers up our sinful flesh? Adam died, that day. Spiritually, meaning no more spiritual body.
Show me a place where the spirit and soul act separately? If our "spirit" goes to be with the Lord, so does our soul. If our spirit goes to Hades, so does our soul. The three part belief system is mistaken.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
Show me a place where the spirit and soul act separately? If our "spirit" goes to be with the Lord, so does our soul. If our spirit goes to Hades, so does our soul. The three part belief system is mistaken.
We are separated from our spirit at conception. We do not have a glorified body. That is why we are not fully in God’s image. Our spirit is not dead. It is with God and His Holy Spirit is with us.

Our three parts is not a belief system. Stating your soul and spirit are combined is a belief system. In fact in philosophy it is defined, and people debate the validity of their respective belief systems.
 

Derf B

Active Member
Any time someone starts with "are you saying" what follows is always a self serving misrepresentation. I have lost all interest in your views.
1) The standard narrative is that when we physically die, our spirit/soul goes either to Hades or if we have been saved, to be present with the Lord.
2) The standard narrative is that Hades is the temporary holding place where the soul/spirits of the lost are kept until the resurrection of the dead.
3) The standard narrative is that prior to the Great White Throne judgment, all the unsaved are resurrected (the resurrection of the dead), with their spirit/souls being united with their physical bodies, such that they stand before the judgement seat. Then all the unsaved are cast into the Lake of Fire where both the body and soul can be destroyed.

No need to muddy those waters.

Yes, that’s what the Pope said to Martin Luther


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