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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jun 26, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Notice when we are 'known by God '( intimately )
    Gal 4 .
    8¶Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
    9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
     
    #121 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    #122 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    ok the non Augustine interpretation. Written to the faithful saints IN CHRIST JESUS
    4According as he hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: NOTICE IT DOESNT SAY CHOSEN TO BE IN HIM .

    5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    Questions : 1) chosen to be saved ? it doesn't say that does it ? " that we should be Holy and without blame.
    2) when do we get IN HIM ? A few verses later
    13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    So we are not ' in him ' before the foundation of the world. nor chosen to be in him .
    notice in 3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    IN CHRIST .
    so when we become ' in him ' we recieve all the blessings. This happens in time . Only Jesus is the preexisting elect before the foundation of the world. When we are placed into him we are chosen for and to ...be holy and without blame and .. predestined to a future Adoption . Notice no ' Spirit of Adoption ' but 'of children '.
     
    #123 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    #124 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    What your failing to see is verses that talk on Adoption , Child of God , sons of God , Spirit OF adoption, Manifestation of , have more than one application.
     
    #125 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Notice I didn't need to go to ' the greek ' ( which greek ? ) or the calvernist transition ESV .
     
    #126 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    • Has God chosen individuals to be placed in Him?
    • Or, has God chosen individuals who are in Him?
    Put another way…

    • Has God predetermined the individuals to be in the group?
    • Or, has God chosen a group of individuals for a predetermined end?
    Some focus so much attention on the first 12 verses that they fail to see the last two verses where Paul gives an answer to this vital question; “How does one come to be in Him?”

    13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

    First question: When were they included in Christ?

    Was it before the foundation of the earth? What answer does the text give?

    “…when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.”
     
    #127 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The text seems to clearly indicate that God has predetermined that the “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (vs. 1) will become “holy and blameless” (sanctification – vs. 4) and they will be “adopted” (glorification – vs. 5). (Note: Romans 8:23 clearly indicates that Paul sees “adoption” as a future hope for all who come to faith.)

    How do we know that we, believers in Christ, will be sanctified and glorified? Because God has marked us IN HIM and given us His Spirit as a guarantee of what he has purposed for all who believe.

    This passage is not about God predetermining which individuals will be in Christ. It is about God predetermining what will become of those who are in Christ through belief in His truth.
     
    #128 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The text seems to clearly indicate that God has predetermined that the “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (vs. 1) will become “holy and blameless” (sanctification – vs. 4) and they will be “adopted” (glorification – vs. 5). (Note: Romans 8:23 clearly indicates that Paul sees “adoption” as a future hope for all who come to faith.)

    How do we know that we, believers in Christ, will be sanctified and glorified? Because God has marked us IN HIM and given us His Spirit as a guarantee of what he has purposed for all who believe.

    This passage is not about God predetermining which individuals will be in Christ. It is about God predetermining what will become of those who are in Christ through belief in His truth.
     
    #129 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

    Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

    . Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

    . Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)
     
    #130 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

    Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

    Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

    Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)
     
    #131 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)
     
    #132 Barry Johnson, Jun 29, 2020
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    No one believes by their own choice. We always choose to be our own ruler.
     
    #133 AustinC, Jun 29, 2020
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Archangel is offering the proper correction as your posts are ALL off the mark. I find it funny as in post#40...you claimed;

    You and others like you have made nothing clear. You have offered a bad caricature in each of these threads you have started these past few days.

    You should read carefully what he offered.
    The web is full of info, like this, you have no excuse to post such nonsense;
    3. Nature of Predestination:

    Predestination is that aspect of foreordination Whereby the salvation of the believer is taken to he effected in accordance with the will of God, who has called and elected him, in Christ, unto life eternal. The divine plan of salvation must certainly be conceived under this aspect of individual reference. To understand and set forth the nature, and ethically justifiable character, of such a foreordaining to life eternal, is our purpose. For doctrine has need to be purged of the historic inconsistencies, and fatal illogicalities, with which, in its older forms of presentation, it was often infected. This, especially, in order that the doctrine may appear as grounded in reason and righteousness, not in arbitrariness and almighty caprice.

    4. The Doctrine in Scripture:

    To begin with, it must be said that there seems to be no evading the doctrine of an election by grace, as found both in the letter and the spirit of Scripture. The idea of predestination is set forth, with great power and clearness, in Romans 8:29,30, and with its elements or parts articulated in natural and striking form. The idea recurs in Ephesians 1, where it is finely said (1:4,5) that God hath chosen us in Christ "before the foundation of the world," having predestinated or "foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ"; and where it is said, further, that our salvation imports "the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure" (1:9), which He purposed in Christ. This "eternal purpose" to save men through Christ is again referred to in Ephesians 3:11. This helpful mode of viewing predestination as in Christ, and never outside Him, had a place in religious thought at the Reformation time, as the famous "Formula of Concord," to be referred to below, shows. The predestined certainty of God's gracious work in Christ was not meant to perplex men, but to encourage and reassure all who trust in His grace. In Romans 9:14-25, the absolute sovereignty of God is put in a form whereby election is made to originate in the divine will apart from all human merit, whether actual or foreseen. But from this assertion of God's free supremacy we can derive no concrete theodicy, or do more than infer that God is just and wise in His exercise of free grace, even when His doings are most perplexing to us.

    Predestination Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
     
    #134 Iconoclast, Jun 29, 2020
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning

    This thread will be closed no sooner than Tuesday, 230 am EDT / Monday 1130 pm PDT
     
    #135 Salty, Jun 29, 2020
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You ignored the teaching given by Archangel. If he was mistaken, show it. You cannot so you deflect to an unrelated verse.
    Go line by line and respond to his correction.
     
    #136 Iconoclast, Jun 29, 2020
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  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I understand that you think that, but you have yet to make any real argument as to why you are correct. You have been making assertion after assertion on this thread, with very little discussion about why your interpretation is correct. Never mind that you haven't even dealt with the arguments others have made (myself included) as to why we are wrong. Simply stating your assertion again or in bold or capital letters does not an argument make.

    The Archangel
     
    #137 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2020
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  18. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You can't really argue Romans from Galatians. To do so is logically incoherent. Now, if you want to open the can of worms of Biblical Theology, that would be fine. But if we are arguing the details of Romans 8, which is what we were doing, saying that Paul's argument in Galatians is what you mean, why did you not discuss Galatians to begin with?

    The Archangel
     
    #138 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2020
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  19. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Well... it is the original.

    The Archangel
     
    #139 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2020
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  20. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing... You keep quoting Romans 8:23 and you try to define "The Adoption" as what you want it to mean. However, even in your own translation, you miss the "to wit" which means "namely." So, even in your own preferred translation you are ignoring that Paul is defining for you what he means by adoption in this case, which is "The redemption of our body." You are ignoring Paul's writing simply because you want to reach a different conclusion than Paul, which is a bit dangerous. At this point this is not a theological discussion; it is simply about grammar--and you seem reluctant to take what Paul has said without reworking it. Curious.

    The Archangel
     
    #140 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2020
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