The Adoption

[Barry Johnson]

Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. Also, the compound word "Foreknew" contains the prefix προ which is coupled with γινωσκω. Had Paul wished to express what you are saying, he would have used only γινωσκω, not προγινωσκω.

Furthermore, God tells Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." In your argument, Jeremiah could not be known by God in the womb because he did not yet know God. So, your argument fails.



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. "Predestined" is not showing future here.



??????



??????



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. While "Glorified" is obviously looking toward the future, Paul's use of the Aorist means that God considered the chosen to be "glorified" in the past and will see to it that it happens.

The Archangel

Notice when we are 'known by God '( intimately )
Gal 4 .
8¶Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Why do you neglect the verses that precede this?
Romans 8:14-15 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. ( Not the Adoption ) For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
( how are you missing the words 'Spirit of ' ?.

This is not future tense, as you are desperately attempting to claim when you only quote one verse on adoption while ignoring all others. Scripture interprets scripture. Therefore, your interpretation is incorrect. How do we know? Because the other passages on adoption correct you and show you to be wrong.
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

All present tense.
Face it, you are wrong.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Why do you neglect the verses that precede this?
Romans 8:14-15 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

This is not future tense, as you are desperately attempting to claim when you only quote one verse on adoption while ignoring all others. Scripture interprets scripture. Therefore, your interpretation is incorrect. How do we know? Because the other passages on adoption correct you and show you to be wrong.
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

All present tense.
Face it, you are wrong.

ok the non Augustine interpretation. Written to the faithful saints IN CHRIST JESUS
4According as he hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: NOTICE IT DOESNT SAY CHOSEN TO BE IN HIM .

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Questions : 1) chosen to be saved ? it doesn't say that does it ? " that we should be Holy and without blame.
2) when do we get IN HIM ? A few verses later
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So we are not ' in him ' before the foundation of the world. nor chosen to be in him .
notice in 3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
IN CHRIST .
so when we become ' in him ' we recieve all the blessings. This happens in time . Only Jesus is the preexisting elect before the foundation of the world. When we are placed into him we are chosen for and to ...be holy and without blame and .. predestined to a future Adoption . Notice no ' Spirit of Adoption ' but 'of children '.

 

[Barry Johnson]

ok the non Augustine interpretation. Written to the faithful saints IN CHRIST JESUS
4According as he hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: NOTICE IT DOESNT SAY CHOSEN TO BE IN HIM .

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Questions : 1) chosen to be saved ? it doesn't say that does it ? " that we should be Holy and without blame.
2) when do we get IN HIM ? A few verses later
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So we are not ' in him ' before the foundation of the world. nor chosen to be in him .
notice in 3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
IN CHRIST .
so when we become ' in him ' we recieve all the blessings. This happens in time . Only Jesus is the preexisting elect before the foundation of the world. When we are placed into him we are chosen for and to ...be holy and without blame and .. predestined to a future Adoption . Notice no ' Spirit of Adoption ' but 'of children '. Back to Roman's 8
18¶For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

 

[Barry Johnson]

What your failing to see is verses that talk on Adoption , Child of God , sons of God , Spirit OF adoption, Manifestation of , have more than one application.

 

[Barry Johnson]

ok the non Augustine interpretation. Written to the faithful saints IN CHRIST JESUS
4According as he hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: NOTICE IT DOESNT SAY CHOSEN TO BE IN HIM .

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Questions : 1) chosen to be saved ? it doesn't say that does it ? " that we should be Holy and without blame.
2) when do we get IN HIM ? A few verses later
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So we are not ' in him ' before the foundation of the world. nor chosen to be in him .
notice in 3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
IN CHRIST .
so when we become ' in him ' we recieve all the blessings. This happens in time . Only Jesus is the preexisting elect before the foundation of the world. When we are placed into him we are chosen for and to ...be holy and without blame and .. predestined to a future Adoption . Notice no ' Spirit of Adoption ' but 'of children '.

Notice I didn't need to go to ' the greek ' ( which greek ? ) or the calvernist transition ESV .

 

[Barry Johnson]

• Has God chosen individuals to be placed in Him?
• Or, has God chosen individuals who are in Him?

Put another way…

• Has God predetermined the individuals to be in the group?
• Or, has God chosen a group of individuals for a predetermined end?

Some focus so much attention on the first 12 verses that they fail to see the last two verses where Paul gives an answer to this vital question; “How does one come to be in Him?”

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

First question: When were they included in Christ?

Was it before the foundation of the earth? What answer does the text give?

“…when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.”

 

[Barry Johnson]

Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. Also, the compound word "Foreknew" contains the prefix προ which is coupled with γινωσκω. Had Paul wished to express what you are saying, he would have used only γινωσκω, not προγινωσκω.

Furthermore, God tells Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." In your argument, Jeremiah could not be known by God in the womb because he did not yet know God. So, your argument fails.



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. "Predestined" is not showing future here.



??????



??????



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. While "Glorified" is obviously looking toward the future, Paul's use of the Aorist means that God considered the chosen to be "glorified" in the past and will see to it that it happens.

The Archangel

The text seems to clearly indicate that God has predetermined that the “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (vs. 1) will become “holy and blameless” (sanctification – vs. 4) and they will be “adopted” (glorification – vs. 5). (Note: Romans 8:23 clearly indicates that Paul sees “adoption” as a future hope for all who come to faith.)

How do we know that we, believers in Christ, will be sanctified and glorified? Because God has marked us IN HIM and given us His Spirit as a guarantee of what he has purposed for all who believe.

This passage is not about God predetermining which individuals will be in Christ. It is about God predetermining what will become of those who are in Christ through belief in His truth.

 

[Barry Johnson]

In that case, you should take much greater care in your words. Even so, not all of those events can be relegated to the moments following conversion.

Here is but one example: Your discussion of "adoption" has been flawed from the beginning. The word is used five times in the New Testament. Your discussion focuses on Romans 8:23 (and later Romans 8:15). The entirety of Romans 8:23 is important to quote: And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23 ESV)

Notice that Paul immediately describes what he means by "adoption as sons;" he describes it as "the redemption of our bodies." What is more, "adoption" in v. 23 is a variant, and as such does not appear in some manuscripts.

Your argument in Romans 8:15 fails because you don't understand that Paul is using "Spirit of adoption" in apposition to "spirit of slavery." Because he juxtaposes these two phrases, the meaning of Spirit of adoption is given not by a lexicon, but by Paul's usage. (To insist on a lexical definition while ignoring usages is to commit what is called the "Lexical fallacy"). What is more, as Paul continues He clearly states that the Spirit of adoption is what makes us children of God.

In v. 15, the verb "received" is Aorist, while the verbs in v. 16 are Present. So, because we have (in the past) received the Spirit of adoption, we are now (in the present) children of God--and to this the Spirit (presently) bears witness.

The Archangel

The text seems to clearly indicate that God has predetermined that the “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (vs. 1) will become “holy and blameless” (sanctification – vs. 4) and they will be “adopted” (glorification – vs. 5). (Note: Romans 8:23 clearly indicates that Paul sees “adoption” as a future hope for all who come to faith.)

How do we know that we, believers in Christ, will be sanctified and glorified? Because God has marked us IN HIM and given us His Spirit as a guarantee of what he has purposed for all who believe.

This passage is not about God predetermining which individuals will be in Christ. It is about God predetermining what will become of those who are in Christ through belief in His truth.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. Also, the compound word "Foreknew" contains the prefix προ which is coupled with γινωσκω. Had Paul wished to express what you are saying, he would have used only γινωσκω, not προγινωσκω.

Furthermore, God tells Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." In your argument, Jeremiah could not be known by God in the womb because he did not yet know God. So, your argument fails.



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. "Predestined" is not showing future here.



??????



??????



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. While "Glorified" is obviously looking toward the future, Paul's use of the Aorist means that God considered the chosen to be "glorified" in the past and will see to it that it happens.

The Archangel

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

 

[Barry Johnson]

In that case, you should take much greater care in your words. Even so, not all of those events can be relegated to the moments following conversion.

Here is but one example: Your discussion of "adoption" has been flawed from the beginning. The word is used five times in the New Testament. Your discussion focuses on Romans 8:23 (and later Romans 8:15). The entirety of Romans 8:23 is important to quote: And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23 ESV)

Notice that Paul immediately describes what he means by "adoption as sons;" he describes it as "the redemption of our bodies." What is more, "adoption" in v. 23 is a variant, and as such does not appear in some manuscripts.

Your argument in Romans 8:15 fails because you don't understand that Paul is using "Spirit of adoption" in apposition to "spirit of slavery." Because he juxtaposes these two phrases, the meaning of Spirit of adoption is given not by a lexicon, but by Paul's usage. (To insist on a lexical definition while ignoring usages is to commit what is called the "Lexical fallacy"). What is more, as Paul continues He clearly states that the Spirit of adoption is what makes us children of God.

In v. 15, the verb "received" is Aorist, while the verbs in v. 16 are Present. So, because we have (in the past) received the Spirit of adoption, we are now (in the present) children of God--and to this the Spirit (presently) bears witness.

The Archangel

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

 

[Barry Johnson]

Jesus says whoever beliefs is saved. Not after they choose to believe.

God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

 

[AustinC]

No one believes by their own choice. We always choose to be our own ruler.

God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

 

[Iconoclast]

Ahh here comes the 'Greek 'this will straighten us all out .

Archangel is offering the proper correction as your posts are ALL off the mark. I find it funny as in post#40...you claimed;

As already made clear .

You and others like you have made nothing clear. You have offered a bad caricature in each of these threads you have started these past few days.

You should read carefully what he offered.
The web is full of info, like this, you have no excuse to post such nonsense;
3. Nature of Predestination:

Predestination is that aspect of foreordination Whereby the salvation of the believer is taken to he effected in accordance with the will of God, who has called and elected him, in Christ, unto life eternal. The divine plan of salvation must certainly be conceived under this aspect of individual reference. To understand and set forth the nature, and ethically justifiable character, of such a foreordaining to life eternal, is our purpose. For doctrine has need to be purged of the historic inconsistencies, and fatal illogicalities, with which, in its older forms of presentation, it was often infected. This, especially, in order that the doctrine may appear as grounded in reason and righteousness, not in arbitrariness and almighty caprice.

4. The Doctrine in Scripture:

To begin with, it must be said that there seems to be no evading the doctrine of an election by grace, as found both in the letter and the spirit of Scripture. The idea of predestination is set forth, with great power and clearness, in Romans 8:29,30, and with its elements or parts articulated in natural and striking form. The idea recurs in Ephesians 1, where it is finely said (1:4,5) that God hath chosen us in Christ "before the foundation of the world," having predestinated or "foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ"; and where it is said, further, that our salvation imports "the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure" (1:9), which He purposed in Christ. This "eternal purpose" to save men through Christ is again referred to in Ephesians 3:11. This helpful mode of viewing predestination as in Christ, and never outside Him, had a place in religious thought at the Reformation time, as the famous "Formula of Concord," to be referred to below, shows. The predestined certainty of God's gracious work in Christ was not meant to perplex men, but to encourage and reassure all who trust in His grace. In Romans 9:14-25, the absolute sovereignty of God is put in a form whereby election is made to originate in the divine will apart from all human merit, whether actual or foreseen. But from this assertion of God's free supremacy we can derive no concrete theodicy, or do more than infer that God is just and wise in His exercise of free grace, even when His doings are most perplexing to us.

Predestination Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning

This thread will be closed no sooner than Tuesday, 230 am EDT / Monday 1130 pm PDT

 

[Iconoclast]

Notice when we are 'known by God '( intimately )
Gal 4 .
8¶Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

You ignored the teaching given by Archangel. If he was mistaken, show it. You cannot so you deflect to an unrelated verse.
Go line by line and respond to his correction.

 

[The Archangel]

The text seems to clearly indicate that God has predetermined that the “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (vs. 1) will become “holy and blameless” (sanctification – vs. 4) and they will be “adopted” (glorification – vs. 5). (Note: Romans 8:23 clearly indicates that Paul sees “adoption” as a future hope for all who come to faith.)

How do we know that we, believers in Christ, will be sanctified and glorified? Because God has marked us IN HIM and given us His Spirit as a guarantee of what he has purposed for all who believe.

This passage is not about God predetermining which individuals will be in Christ. It is about God predetermining what will become of those who are in Christ through belief in His truth.

I understand that you think that, but you have yet to make any real argument as to why you are correct. You have been making assertion after assertion on this thread, with very little discussion about why your interpretation is correct. Never mind that you haven't even dealt with the arguments others have made (myself included) as to why we are wrong. Simply stating your assertion again or in bold or capital letters does not an argument make.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Notice when we are 'known by God '( intimately )
Gal 4 .
8¶Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

You can't really argue Romans from Galatians. To do so is logically incoherent. Now, if you want to open the can of worms of Biblical Theology, that would be fine. But if we are arguing the details of Romans 8, which is what we were doing, saying that Paul's argument in Galatians is what you mean, why did you not discuss Galatians to begin with?

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Ahh here comes the 'Greek 'this will straighten us all out .

Well... it is the original.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Again
Rom 8 . 23 .
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for THE ADOPTION to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

WAIT FOR WHAT .'.oh I'm adopted now' you say ..no we have the Spirit OF Adoption . We are not Adopted in a western sense .

Here's the thing... You keep quoting Romans 8:23 and you try to define "The Adoption" as what you want it to mean. However, even in your own translation, you miss the "to wit" which means "namely." So, even in your own preferred translation you are ignoring that Paul is defining for you what he means by adoption in this case, which is "The redemption of our body." You are ignoring Paul's writing simply because you want to reach a different conclusion than Paul, which is a bit dangerous. At this point this is not a theological discussion; it is simply about grammar--and you seem reluctant to take what Paul has said without reworking it. Curious.

The Archangel