The Adoption

[Barry Johnson]

This is not true. Romans 8:29–30 states:

[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (ESV)​

All of the verbs in this passage, of which there are five (and I have underlined them for you), are in the Aorist tense. In Greek the Aorist talks about things having been done in the past (it presents a "snapshot," not a progression). So, your assertion that "all things happen to the believer immediately upon conversion" does not agree with scripture.

The Archangel

Primarily I'm talking about when we believe the Gospel we are born again , baptised by the Holy Spirit .Sealed by the Holy Spirit , Justified, declared righteous , predestined to The adoption ect . All at the moment we believe the Gospel .

 

[Barry Johnson]

If you have eternal life, you are alive to believe the gospel.

No that's Augustine again . The bible says clearly AFTER we believe we are saved . Eph 1

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is not true. Romans 8:29–30 states:

[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (ESV)​

All of the verbs in this passage, of which there are five (and I have underlined them for you), are in the Aorist tense. In Greek the Aorist talks about things having been done in the past (it presents a "snapshot," not a progression). So, your assertion that "all things happen to the believer immediately upon conversion" does not agree with scripture.

The Archangel

Only when we believe does God ' know us ) 1 ) Foreknow
2) predestined . this is saved people to future Glorification ( conformed to his image / The redemption of the body/ The Adoption.
3) Called . Theres only two ' calls ' . The Gospel call and the call to service.
4 ) Justified, by the applied blood
5 ) Glorified is an already as far as Gods concerned . Due to predestination to The Adoption after we believe ( eternal security) No lost person is predestined to be saved . Its saved people predestined to future adoption ( glorification)

 

[Barry Johnson]

You make it law when believing (receiving) becomes a work of the flesh condition. It makes you the savior at Christ's expense. ANd gives you the glory due only to God.

Again it's you that is arguing with the bible saying ' faith ' is a work . when it clearly is not.

 

[The Archangel]

Primarily I'm talking about when we believe the Gospel we are born again , baptised by the Holy Spirit .Sealed by the Holy Spirit , Justified, declared righteous , predestined to The adoption ect . All at the moment we believe the Gospel .

In that case, you should take much greater care in your words. Even so, not all of those events can be relegated to the moments following conversion.

Here is but one example: Your discussion of "adoption" has been flawed from the beginning. The word is used five times in the New Testament. Your discussion focuses on Romans 8:23 (and later Romans 8:15). The entirety of Romans 8:23 is important to quote: And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23 ESV)

Notice that Paul immediately describes what he means by "adoption as sons;" he describes it as "the redemption of our bodies." What is more, "adoption" in v. 23 is a variant, and as such does not appear in some manuscripts.

Your argument in Romans 8:15 fails because you don't understand that Paul is using "Spirit of adoption" in apposition to "spirit of slavery." Because he juxtaposes these two phrases, the meaning of Spirit of adoption is given not by a lexicon, but by Paul's usage. (To insist on a lexical definition while ignoring usages is to commit what is called the "Lexical fallacy"). What is more, as Paul continues He clearly states that the Spirit of adoption is what makes us children of God.

In v. 15, the verb "received" is Aorist, while the verbs in v. 16 are Present. So, because we have (in the past) received the Spirit of adoption, we are now (in the present) children of God--and to this the Spirit (presently) bears witness.

The Archangel

 

[Salty]

Iconoclast Why do you think post # 40 is funny? (pg 2)

 

[The Archangel]

Only when we believe does God ' know us ) 1 ) Foreknow

Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. Also, the compound word "Foreknew" contains the prefix προ which is coupled with γινωσκω. Had Paul wished to express what you are saying, he would have used only γινωσκω, not προγινωσκω.

Furthermore, God tells Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." In your argument, Jeremiah could not be known by God in the womb because he did not yet know God. So, your argument fails.

2) predestined . this is saved people to future Glorification ( conformed to his image / The redemption of the body/ The Adoption.

Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. "Predestined" is not showing future here.

3) Called . Theres only two ' calls ' . The Gospel call and the call to service.

??????

4 ) Justified, by the applied blood

??????

5 ) Glorified is an already as far as Gods concerned . Due to predestination to The Adoption after we believe ( eternal security) No lost person is predestined to be saved . Its saved people predestined to future adoption ( glorification)

Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. While "Glorified" is obviously looking toward the future, Paul's use of the Aorist means that God considered the chosen to be "glorified" in the past and will see to it that it happens.

The Archangel

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. Also, the compound word "Foreknew" contains the prefix προ which is coupled with γινωσκω. Had Paul wished to express what you are saying, he would have used only γινωσκω, not προγινωσκω.

Furthermore, God tells Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." In your argument, Jeremiah could not be known by God in the womb because he did not yet know God. So, your argument fails.



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. "Predestined" is not showing future here.



??????



??????



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. While "Glorified" is obviously looking toward the future, Paul's use of the Aorist means that God considered the chosen to be "glorified" in the past and will see to it that it happens.

The Archangel

T you need to visit this place some more!

 

[1689Dave]

Again it's you that is arguing with the bible saying ' faith ' is a work . when it clearly is not.

Faith is not a work unless you make it a condition you must meet in order to save yourself. It is not real faith but forcing your mind to believe thinking God will then owe you salvation.

 

[1689Dave]

No that's Augustine again . The bible says clearly AFTER we believe we are saved . Eph 1

Jesus says whoever beliefs is saved. Not after they choose to believe.

 

[1689Dave]

Isnt this Israel ?
5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7¶And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

The Church is Israel. Not unbelievers.

 

[37818]

The Church is Israel.

The Israel of God is part of the Church. The whole church is not Israel but does share with Israel in Israel's New Covenant.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The Church is Israel. Not unbelievers.

oh dear..'The church is Israel ' ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

In that case, you should take much greater care in your words. Even so, not all of those events can be relegated to the moments following conversion.

Here is but one example: Your discussion of "adoption" has been flawed from the beginning. The word is used five times in the New Testament. Your discussion focuses on Romans 8:23 (and later Romans 8:15). The entirety of Romans 8:23 is important to quote: And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23 ESV)

Notice that Paul immediately describes what he means by "adoption as sons;" he describes it as "the redemption of our bodies." What is more, "adoption" in v. 23 is a variant, and as such does not appear in some manuscripts.

Your argument in Romans 8:15 fails because you don't understand that Paul is using "Spirit of adoption" in apposition to "spirit of slavery." Because he juxtaposes these two phrases, the meaning of Spirit of adoption is given not by a lexicon, but by Paul's usage. (To insist on a lexical definition while ignoring usages is to commit what is called the "Lexical fallacy"). What is more, as Paul continues He clearly states that the Spirit of adoption is what makes us children of God.

In v. 15, the verb "received" is Aorist, while the verbs in v. 16 are Present. So, because we have (in the past) received the Spirit of adoption, we are now (in the present) children of God--and to this the Spirit (presently) bears witness.

The Archangel

Ahh here comes the 'Greek 'this will straighten us all out .

 

[AustinC]

Ahh here comes the 'Greek 'this will straighten us all out .

What do you mean by "us?" Do you have a clone on this site?

 

[Barry Johnson]

In that case, you should take much greater care in your words. Even so, not all of those events can be relegated to the moments following conversion.

Here is but one example: Your discussion of "adoption" has been flawed from the beginning. The word is used five times in the New Testament. Your discussion focuses on Romans 8:23 (and later Romans 8:15). The entirety of Romans 8:23 is important to quote: And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23 ESV)

Notice that Paul immediately describes what he means by "adoption as sons;" he describes it as "the redemption of our bodies." What is more, "adoption" in v. 23 is a variant, and as such does not appear in some manuscripts.

Your argument in Romans 8:15 fails because you don't understand that Paul is using "Spirit of adoption" in apposition to "spirit of slavery." Because he juxtaposes these two phrases, the meaning of Spirit of adoption is given not by a lexicon, but by Paul's usage. (To insist on a lexical definition while ignoring usages is to commit what is called the "Lexical fallacy"). What is more, as Paul continues He clearly states that the Spirit of adoption is what makes us children of God.

In v. 15, the verb "received" is Aorist, while the verbs in v. 16 are Present. So, because we have (in the past) received the Spirit of adoption, we are now (in the present) children of God--and to this the Spirit (presently) bears witness.

The Archangel

Again
Rom 8 . 23 .
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for THE ADOPTION to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

WAIT FOR WHAT .'.oh I'm adopted now' you say ..no we have the Spirit OF Adoption . We are not Adopted in a western sense .

 

[Barry Johnson]

What do you mean by "us?" Do you have a clone on this site?

Well ' Us ' Our ' we ' All ' ' everyone ' ' world '
for some this means what ever they want it to mean .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Jesus says whoever beliefs is saved. Not after they choose to believe.

That literally makes no sense .

 

[AustinC]

Again
Rom 8 . 23 .
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for THE ADOPTION to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

WAIT FOR WHAT .'.oh I'm adopted now' you say ..no we have the Spirit OF Adoption . We are not Adopted in a western sense .

Why do you neglect the verses that precede this?
Romans 8:14-15 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

This is not future tense, as you are desperately attempting to claim when you only quote one verse on adoption while ignoring all others. Scripture interprets scripture. Therefore, your interpretation is incorrect. How do we know? Because the other passages on adoption correct you and show you to be wrong.
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

All present tense.
Face it, you are wrong.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. Also, the compound word "Foreknew" contains the prefix προ which is coupled with γινωσκω. Had Paul wished to express what you are saying, he would have used only γινωσκω, not προγινωσκω.

Furthermore, God tells Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." In your argument, Jeremiah could not be known by God in the womb because he did not yet know God. So, your argument fails.



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. "Predestined" is not showing future here.



??????



??????



Nope. Again, the Aorist tense does not allow for this. While "Glorified" is obviously looking toward the future, Paul's use of the Aorist means that God considered the chosen to be "glorified" in the past and will see to it that it happens.

The Archangel

They were considered Glorified in the past ? what before they existed .. Eph 2
1¶And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
So they were considered Glorified before they existed? then God considered them dead , children of wrath , without Christ , Aliens , strangers form the promise , having no hope and without God . ??????