Predestination

[Twiceborn]

I often hear the argument that we are predestinated for the adoption after we believe. How is this view maintained in light of Romans 8:29-30?

Romans 8:29-30 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order given is this passage:

Foreknown
Predestinated
Called
Justified
Glorified

However the typical baptist framework requires this order:

Foreknown
Called
(Correct Response)
Justified
Predestinated
Glorified

How do you account for the fact that we were predestinated to be conformed to Christ before we were called?

 

[atpollard]

I am not a General Baptist, but two common answers from that side of the argument:

1. “Foreknew” means an omniscient God looking down the corridor of time to see who will ultimately freely decide to accept His offer.
2. This section of Romans is not outlining a plan of “individual” salvation (the salvation of each specific person yet to be born), but rather God is outlining a “roadway” to glorification found in Christ. In other words, God Foreknew that some people would believe, so they (collectively) are foreknown and predestined in Christ. All are called and some will respond in Christ, and those that respond will be justified and glorified in Christ. God planned the path to Glorification in Christ from the beginning, knowing that some would follow and many would not, but the path was prepared in Christ for those that would follow.

 

[Twiceborn]

Regarding the second view that you present, the verse is clear that "whom he called, them he also justified". The notion that all are called and only those who respond will be justified goes against the text.

Of the three views, the first that you mentioned seems to be the only free will view that can withstand this passage.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I often hear the argument that we are predestinated for the adoption after we believe. How is this view maintained in light of Romans 8:29-30?

Romans 8:29-30 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order given is this passage:

Foreknown
Predestinated
Called
Justified
Glorified

However the typical baptist framework requires this order:

Foreknown
Called
(Correct Response)
Justified
Predestinated
Glorified

How do you account for the fact that we were predestinated to be conformed to Christ before we were called?

called to what ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

called to what ?

There's 2 callings in the bible . The Gospel call and the call to service . No one is ' called to be saved . There's no such thing as Previeniant grace nor ' an inward ' or ' effectual call ' particular call ' General call ' or phone call in the bible .

 

[Barry Johnson]

called to what ?

predestined to be conformed and The Adoption do not happen until Glorification. simple . Both Calvernism and Arminism mess this up because they accept total inability .

 

[Barry Johnson]

called to what ?

How do you account for the fact your not yet glorified ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I am not a General Baptist, but two common answers from that side of the argument:

1. “Foreknew” means an omniscient God looking down the corridor of time to see who will ultimately freely decide to accept His offer.
2. This section of Romans is not outlining a plan of “individual” salvation (the salvation of each specific person yet to be born), but rather God is outlining a “roadway” to glorification found in Christ. In other words, God Foreknew that some people would believe, so they (collectively) are foreknown and predestined in Christ. All are called and some will respond in Christ, and those that respond will be justified and glorified in Christ. God planned the path to Glorification in Christ from the beginning, knowing that some would follow and many would not, but the path was prepared in Christ for those that would follow.

Foreknew as in ' looking down the corridor of time ' is unbiblical as is the calvernist version . Notice in Galatians when we are known by God ( foreknown from God's perspective, intimately )
8¶Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
This is clearly AFTER we believe
And this clears up the issue when Jesus tells many that " I never KNEW you " mathew 7

 

[Barry Johnson]

I often hear the argument that we are predestinated for the adoption after we believe. How is this view maintained in light of Romans 8:29-30?

Romans 8:29-30 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order given is this passage:

Foreknown
Predestinated
Called
Justified
Glorified

However the typical baptist framework requires this order:

Foreknown
Called
(Correct Response)
Justified
Predestinated
Glorified

How do you account for the fact that we were predestinated to be conformed to Christ before we were called?

When we believe AFTER we then receive the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Also AFTER we Believe we are Predestined to future Adoption / to be conformed to His image . We are not Adopted when we believe nor conformed to HIS image .

 

[Barry Johnson]

When we believe AFTER we then receive the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Also AFTER we Believe we are Predestined to future Adoption / to be conformed to His image . We are not Adopted when we believe nor conformed to HIS image NNE is predestined to BE SAVED .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I am not a General Baptist, but two common answers from that side of the argument:

1. “Foreknew” means an omniscient God looking down the corridor of time to see who will ultimately freely decide to accept His offer.
2. This section of Romans is not outlining a plan of “individual” salvation (the salvation of each specific person yet to be born), but rather God is outlining a “roadway” to glorification found in Christ. In other words, God Foreknew that some people would believe, so they (collectively) are foreknown and predestined in Christ. All are called and some will respond in Christ, and those that respond will be justified and glorified in Christ. God planned the path to Glorification in Christ from the beginning, knowing that some would follow and many would not, but the path was prepared in Christ for those that would follow.

Basically Romans 8 is about saved people that need not despair inspite of suffering because they are Predestined to future ( guarenteed ) Glorification. It is to individuals . Thats why it ends with NOTHING can separate .

 

[JonC]

But what if Paul was not giving a chronological order of events?

 

[Barry Johnson]

But what if Paul was not giving a chronological order of events?

Those he called to service , He also justified. The assumption is the ' called ' somehow means ' effectual irresistible call ' which is no where to found in the bible .

 

[JonC]

Those he called to service , He also justified. The assumption is the ' called ' somehow means ' effectual irresistible call ' which is no where to found in the bible .

Does Paul specify this is an order of events (those He called He also justified can also mean those He justified He also called)?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Does Paul specify this is an order of events (those He called He also justified can also mean those He justified He also called)?

Yes I agree . We know from other places that this is the case .

 

[atpollard]

Regarding the second view that you present, the verse is clear that "whom he called, them he also justified". The notion that all are called and only those who respond will be justified goes against the text.

If I proclaim the gospel in Times Square and 1000 people hear it, were they all “called” or not? If not, then in what way were they not called?

In the parable of the Sower, the seed was scattered on all of the soils ... even those where it had no chance of growing.

 

[atpollard]

Foreknew as in ' looking down the corridor of time ' is unbiblical as is the calvernist version .

There is no such word as “calvernist”. The word you are looking for is Calvinist.

 

[Barry Johnson]

There is no such word as “calvernist”. The word you are looking for is Calvinist.

You just wrote it ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

You just wrote it ?

There is no such word as “calvernist”. The word you are looking for is Calvinist.

OK Mr spell check

 

[atpollard]

Those he called to service , He also justified. The assumption is the ' called ' somehow means ' effectual irresistible call ' which is no where to found in the bible .

Except for John 6:44 where those DRAWN (which does mean irresistible) are also RAISED by Christ on the last day.