Predestination

[atpollard]

Does Paul specify this is an order of events (those He called He also justified can also mean those He justified He also called)?

Can God have Glorified before he Foreknew?

 

[JonC]

Can God have Glorified before he Foreknew?

Can God? I have to say yes. For one to depend on another demands a mutable God.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Except for John 6:44 where those DRAWN (which does mean irresistible) are also RAISED by Christ on the last day.

John 6 .44
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
OK a couple of things to notice . First this is before Jesus is crucified , and His resurrection. And We know Jesus says that He will draw all men to Him . The second point is the word CAN in verse 44
The point is about the' CAN COME ' . So basically they can come. The Father at that time is drawing all those that were physically following Jesus ( no one is physically or literally following Jesus physically today ) The ones ( sheep ) who also listened and learned of the Father . Nothing is said about the one's that are draw if they all come . Its Just that no one can come ( but they can ) unless the Father Draws. what if they don't come to Jesus ? Also Judas came . lots came but turned away .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Can God have Glorified before he Foreknew?

I believe that from God's perspective a person who has come to be ' known of God ) Galatians 4 ) who is in Him and sealed by the Holy Spirit is as far as God is concerned is Glorified.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I believe that from God's perspective a person who has come to be ' known of God ) Galatians 4 ) who is in Him and sealed by the Holy Spirit is as far as God is concerned is Glorified.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Except for John 6:44 where those DRAWN (which does mean irresistible) are also RAISED by Christ on the last day.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
what has God held back in order for everyone being able to come to Jesus ?

 

[atpollard]

I believe that from God's perspective a person who has come to be ' known of God ) Galatians 4 ) who is in Him and sealed by the Holy Spirit is as far as God is concerned is Glorified.

“Foreknown” means to have a relationship before, as in God loved you before you existed (thus the reason for the Predestined, Called, Justified and Glorified). Glorified means to be made perfect and sinless, a promise that is to be fulfilled for the Saints when we leave this mortal body behind. Do you really believe that you were made perfect before God even knew you, let alone before you were Justified in Christ?

I believe it a nonsensical position to take on the passage in Romans and contrary to the plain reading of the so called “golden chain”.

 

[atpollard]

John 6 .44
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
OK a couple of things to notice . First this is before Jesus is crucified , and His resurrection. And We know Jesus says that He will draw all men to Him . The second point is the word CAN in verse 44
The point is about the' CAN COME ' . So basically they can come. The Father at that time is drawing all those that were physically following Jesus ( no one is physically or literally following Jesus physically today ) The ones ( sheep ) who also listened and learned of the Father . Nothing is said about the one's that are draw if they all come . Its Just that no one can come ( but they can ) unless the Father Draws. what if they don't come to Jesus ? Also Judas came . lots came but turned away .

THOSE that come ARE RAISED. All, not some. Read it again and check out the context. If ALL are drawn, then ALL are raised and we have UNIVERSALISM in John 6:44.

 

[Barry Johnson]

“Foreknown” means to have a relationship before, as in God loved you before you existed (thus the reason for the Predestined, Called, Justified and Glorified). Glorified means to be made perfect and sinless, a promise that is to be fulfilled for the Saints when we leave this mortal body behind. Do you really believe that you were made perfect before God even knew you, let alone before you were Justified in Christ?

I believe it a nonsensical position to take on the passage in Romans and contrary to the plain reading of the so called “golden chain”.

Firstly there is no such thing as a ' Golden chain of redemption ' . This brain washes the person into giving up his sense making to a system . It makes far more sense from Ephesians especially to see that we are not known intimately before we exist . We are told that we were lost , enemies , strangers , without hope before being in Jesus . Galations 4 however reveals we are known by God AFTER we believe . And it makes more sense that the call is simply when we hear the ' call ' of the Gospel ( the other call is to service .To do something .This is what elect means ) . Then from being Justified and predestined to certain Justification.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Firstly there is no such thing as a ' Golden chain of redemption ' . This brain washes the person into giving up his sense making to a system . It makes far more sense from Ephesians especially to see that we are not known intimately before we exist . We are told that we were lost , enemies , strangers , without hope before being in Jesus . Galations 4 however reveals we are known by God AFTER we believe . And it makes more sense that the call is simply when we hear the ' call ' of the Gospel ( the other call is to service .To do something .This is what elect means ) . Then from being Justified and predestined to certain Glorifi ed

 

[Barry Johnson]

THOSE that come ARE RAISED. All, not some. Read it again and check out the context. If ALL are drawn, then ALL are raised and we have UNIVERSALISM in John 6:44.

yes those that come to Jesus , then believe will be raised . But not ALL receive .
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10¶He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1

 

[Barry Johnson]

yes those that come to Jesus , then believe will be raised . But not ALL receive .
That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.
10¶He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1

 

[atpollard]

Firstly there is no such thing as a ' Golden chain of redemption ' . This brain washes the person into giving up his sense making to a system . It makes far more sense from Ephesians especially to see that we are not known intimately before we exist . We are told that we were lost , enemies , strangers , without hope before being in Jesus . Galations 4 however reveals we are known by God AFTER we believe . And it makes more sense that the call is simply when we hear the ' call ' of the Gospel ( the other call is to service .To do something .This is what elect means ) . Then from being Justified and predestined to certain Justification.

Well I’ll just hurry off an tear “Romans” out of my Bible then.
Thank you for enlightening me.

Are there many other verses that I should simply ignore as well?

 

[Barry Johnson]

“Foreknown” means to have a relationship before, as in God loved you before you existed (thus the reason for the Predestined, Called, Justified and Glorified). Glorified means to be made perfect and sinless, a promise that is to be fulfilled for the Saints when we leave this mortal body behind. Do you really believe that you were made perfect before God even knew you, let alone before you were Justified in Christ?

I believe it a nonsensical position to take on the passage in Romans and contrary to the plain reading of the so called “golden chain”.

I Do you not see that you did not have a relationship with God before you existed ?
Eph 2
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Well I’ll just hurry off an tear “Romans” out of my Bible then.
Thank you for enlightening me.

Are there many other verses that I should simply ignore as well?

who else calls it the GOLDEN !! C H A I N OF REEEEDEMPTION !!! ( for effect ) but the calvernist ? The bible however reveals are far more sure promise . All Those that have been sealed by the Holy Spirit ..till when ? Till the day of redemption. All those that believe the Gospel , are justified and predestined to Glorification. Simple

 

[Barry Johnson]

Well I’ll just hurry off an tear “Romans” out of my Bible then.
Thank you for enlightening me.

Are there many other verses that I should simply ignore as well?

it's when you believe , now you are ' foreknown '

 

[Barry Johnson]

Well I’ll just hurry off an tear “Romans” out of my Bible then.
Thank you for enlightening me.

Are there many other verses that I should simply ignore as well?

Your ignoring the context of Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 and John 6 .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Your ignoring the context of Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 and John 6 .

Literally Calvernism is dependant on theses . That and the T in the TULIP . But because of the T it has to force the above to read into the text ,taking out of context for its proof texts .

 

[Iconoclast]

OK Mr spell check

You have spelled it wrong all week.
That is not a crime, but shows you have not really studied it at all.

 

[AustinC]

Firstly there is no such thing as a ' Golden chain of redemption ' . This brain washes the person into giving up his sense making to a system . It makes far more sense from Ephesians especially to see that we are not known intimately before we exist . We are told that we were lost , enemies , strangers , without hope before being in Jesus . Galations 4 however reveals we are known by God AFTER we believe . And it makes more sense that the call is simply when we hear the ' call ' of the Gospel ( the other call is to service .To do something .This is what elect means ) . Then from being Justified and predestined to certain Justification.

Huh. It seems you are saying God is ignorant of all humans until humans choose him. Then, and only then does the lightbulb go off in God's mind so that he can know us. Apparently God is not all knowing, all powerful and all seeing. Instead he's entirely blind unti humans make themselves known to him by believing.
Does God where a red suit and say Ho, Ho, Ho? Does he like milk and cookies?

Barry, you entirely misread Galatians and thus you hone in on one phrase and create a doctrine out of it, while ignoring the context of the passage.

Galatians 3:23 - 4:12

Before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then,
the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we
are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were
baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's
offspring, heirs according to promise.

I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children,
were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his
Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption
as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no
longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you
have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless
elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and
seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Brothers, I entreat you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are.

The bolded sentences clearly show you that God knew his children far before we ever believed. Therefore, when Paul says "or rather be known by God," Paul is not saying God was ignorant of us until we believe. Paul is saying that when we believed, God saw us in Christ Jesus as sons of God. Before that, God saw us as being captive and in prison.

Please see what God says in context rather than take a phrase out of context and then create an entire false doctrine out of it, like you have done.