Predestination

[Barry Johnson]

Prescience means to know "about" something.
Therefore, the "Arminian" thinks that "foreknowledge" is simply knowing who would believe, as opposed to knowing someone personally, choosing them "in Christ" from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) and arranging for them ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ) to believe.

What does Psalms 139 describe, when you look at it?

To me, the idea of limiting "foreknowledge" to simply knowing about something, doesn't bear up under the context of other passages that clearly demonstrate God's love for a people, even when they were dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-6 ) and being God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

Throw in 1 John 4:19, and I think you might see where I'm going.

Granted, the word is "foreknowledge" and "foreknow".
The Greek word is "proginosko", which, literally translated, means "before-to-know".

To me, the Greek does not shed enough light to explain the context.

' Arranging for them to believe ' ???? Both the Arminain and the Augustine idea of election based on a shared faulty view of ' totally depravity is the confusion here. Then we see proof text s taken out of context .

 

[Barry Johnson]

You have spelled it wrong all week.
That is not a crime, but shows you have not really studied it at all.
No it just shows my spelling is poor lol

 

[Dave G]

Do you read an English translation?

Yes.

If so you also read human interpretation (all translation involves interpretation).

That's linguistics, Jon.

Good translation does not equal determining for me what the meaning is.
It takes the words exactly as they are and renders them over to the target language as closely as possible.

If you wish to relegate the understanding of God's word to whatever is relative, then that is fine.
But I will not do it.
Words have meanings...

Whether or not everyone agrees with those meanings is the problem in discussions like this.

For example, "Predestination" is "to determine before-hand ", unless that meaning has changed in the past 500 years.

You could use language tools. But these are also human additions involving interpretive choices.

I don't operate on "interpretive choices", at least for the most part.

I read God's word and I've gradually come to my own understanding of it independently from the influences of men.
God's word tells me that I do not need a man to teach me what His word means.

And Scripture also tells us God has gifted churches teachers.

I agree.
So, what are those teachers for, except to guide their brothers and sisters to the very words of God for each and every subject?

To me, they should know what the words on the page mean independent of me giving my own "interpretation".
However, I find it helpful to explain how I see it and compare notes.

Scripture tells us to heed the words of the elders (those mature in the faith).

I'm not sure I've ever met one of those face to face.

For what reason did Paul write that God gives teachers to the church?

" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

Why does Scripture teach to evaluate doctrine if we are not to evaluate doctrines?

We as believers are to evaluate doctrines.
We are to compare what others teach, take it all back to the words on the page, and then evaluate whether or not it is true.


Apologies for the long post.

 

[JonC]

Yes.

that's linguistics, Jon.
Good translation does not equal determining for me what the meaning is.

It takes the words exactly as they are and renders them over to the target language as closely as possible.

I don't operate on "interpretive choices", at least for the most part.

I read God's word and I've gradually come to my own understanding of it independently from the influences of men.
God's word tells me that I do not need a man to teach me what His word means.

I agree.
So, what are those teachers for, except to guide their brothers and sisters to the very words of God for each and every subject?

To me, they should know what the words on the page mean independent of me giving my own "interpretation".
However, I find it helpful to explain how I see it and compare notes.

I'm not sure I've ever met one of those face to face.

" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

We as believers are to evaluate doctrines.

We are to compare what others teach, take it all back to the words on the page, and then evaluate whether or not it is true.

I agree with what you say but with one exception - all translation involves interpretation (it is not as simple as linguistic transcription).

 

[Dave G]

' Arranging for them to believe ' ????

Sure, Barry.
I'll give you an example:

" Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." ( Acts of the Apostles 18:9-10 )

I see that the Lord told Paul that He had many elect in the city of Corinth, and that he should not be afraid to speak, for He was with him.

Another example:

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 ).

I see that the believers at Jerusalem praised God and had favor with all the people.
The Lord added to the church daily, such people as He determined to save...
Those He was minded, should be saved.

One more example:

" Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:24-26 ).

Here I see that the Jews in this passage kept asking the Lord to speak plainly and declare whether or not He was the Christ ( Messiah ).
He told them that He had already done so, and that they had not believed.
He then told them why they did not believe...

Because they were not "of" His sheep.
In other words, they were not His Father's elect and were never given to Him by His Father ( John 6:37, John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ).


What do you see when you read these passages, if I may ask?

 

[1689Dave]

How can God not foresee a person's quality if he created all? Or how can God not foresee a person's depravity left unchecked if he planned not to justify it? How can we alter the course of the universe set into motion by God when it is he who sets us into the motion of the universe?

 

[Dave G]

Those he called to service , He also justified.

Here is the passage in Romans 8:26-30:

" Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

 

[Dave G]

@Barry Johnson
Here's what I see when I read this passage for myself :

26) Likewise ( referring to what came before in the chapter ), the Spirit helps our infirmities ( physical conditions of the flesh ), because we do not know what we should pray for as we ought to.
But the Spirit within us makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be spoken by us.

27) He that searches the hearts ( that's the Lord, please see Psalms 44:21, Psalms 139:1, Jeremiah 17:10, Acts of the Apostles 1:24 ), knows what is the mind of the Spirit ( for they are One, please see 1 John 5:7 )...
Because He ( Christ ) makes intercession for the saints ( Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25 ) according to God.

28) We know that all things work together for good to them ( individuals ) that love God.
They are the same people who are "the called" according to purpose.

29) Those ( individuals ) He foreknew, He did many things for...
Firstly, He predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that His Son would be the firstborn among many brethren.

30) Plus, those ( individuals ) He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, He also "called".
Those ( individuals ) that were "called" He also justified.
Those ( individuals ) that He justified, He also glorified.

 

[Dave G]

@Barry Johnson
What do I conclude or understand from all of this?
That no one outside of being foreknown will ever experience the rest.

No one who was not foreknown will ever be conformed to the image of His Son ( they were not predestinated to it ),
and no one who is not justified by the blood of His Son, will ever be "called" by God through the Spirit...
nor will they ever be glorified with new bodies at the first resurrection.

Therefore, if we have believed on Christ, then His blood justifies us.
That justification is a direct result of all the rest.
Our being glorified with new bodies is a direct result of all that came before, by the hand of a merciful and loving God.

Some people call this "the unbreakable chain of salvation".
I call it a literal impossibility, according to the words on the page, that anyone outside of this process will ever experience eternal life.


Similar to my post #65 to you above, what do you see when you look at Romans 8:26-30, if I may ask?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Here is the passage in Romans 8:26-30:

" Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Called to what?

 

[Barry Johnson]

@Barry Johnson
What do I conclude or understand from all of this?
That no one outside of being foreknown will ever experience the rest.

No one who was not foreknown will ever be conformed to the image of His Son ( they were not predestinated to it ),
and no one who is not justified by the blood of His Son, will ever be "called" by God through the Spirit...
nor will they ever be glorified with new bodies at the first resurrection.

Therefore, if we have believed on Christ, then His blood justifies us.
That justification is a direct result of all the rest.
Our being glorified with new bodies is a direct result of all that came before, by the hand of a merciful and loving God.

Some people call this "the unbreakable chain of salvation".
I call it a literal impossibility, according to the words on the page, that anyone outside of this process will ever experience eternal life.


Similar to my post #65 to you above, what do you see when you look at Romans 8:26-30, if I may ask?

Are you conformed to His image now ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

@Barry Johnson
What do I conclude or understand from all of this?
That no one outside of being foreknown will ever experience the rest.

No one who was not foreknown will ever be conformed to the image of His Son ( they were not predestinated to it ),
and no one who is not justified by the blood of His Son, will ever be "called" by God through the Spirit...
nor will they ever be glorified with new bodies at the first resurrection.

Therefore, if we have believed on Christ, then His blood justifies us.
That justification is a direct result of all the rest.
Our being glorified with new bodies is a direct result of all that came before, by the hand of a merciful and loving God.

Some people call this "the unbreakable chain of salvation".
I call it a literal impossibility, according to the words on the page, that anyone outside of this process will ever experience eternal life.


Similar to my post #65 to you above, what do you see when you look at Romans 8:26-30, if I may ask?

What's wrong with the simple reading. all those that believe are known of God and justified. The called has only two aspects . The Gosepl call and the call to do or be something. Then all those are predestined to future glorification . Thats security . no need for the nonsense of perseverance and enduring till the end to be saved .

 

[Barry Johnson]

@Barry Johnson
Here's what I see when I read this passage for myself :

26) Likewise ( referring to what came before in the chapter ), the Spirit helps our infirmities ( physical conditions of the flesh ), because we do not know what we should pray for as we ought to.
But the Spirit within us makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be spoken by us.

27) He that searches the hearts ( that's the Lord, please see Psalms 44:21, Psalms 139:1, Jeremiah 17:10, Acts of the Apostles 1:24 ), knows what is the mind of the Spirit ( for they are One, please see 1 John 5:7 )...
Because He ( Christ ) makes intercession for the saints ( Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25 ) according to God.

28) We know that all things work together for good to them ( individuals ) that love God.
They are the same people who are "the called" according to purpose.

29) Those ( individuals ) He foreknew, He did many things for...
Firstly, He predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that His Son would be the firstborn among many brethren.

30) Plus, those ( individuals ) He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, He also "called".
Those ( individuals ) that were "called" He also justified.
Those ( individuals ) that He justified, He also glorified.

The problem you have here and its the same with eph 1 . Your not Adopted now ( redeemed body ) nor are you conformed . So if this is the very thing Paul is focusing on through out Roman's 8 it is not to tell them that they have been predestined to be saved before they existed . its that they are to be comforted because they are promised future glorification . They need to hear this because they are suffering. They could easily be swayed into thinking God has forsook them.No God has Justified them ( which clearly the order is AFTER trusting ( believing) hes called them . He's sanctified them ( notice that's missed off the so called G C of Redemption. He's sealed them by the Holy Spirit until the day of future adoption ( rom 8.23 ) The Glorification is certain .

 

[Barry Johnson]

@Barry Johnson
What do I conclude or understand from all of this?
That no one outside of being foreknown will ever experience the rest.

No one who was not foreknown will ever be conformed to the image of His Son ( they were not predestinated to it ),
and no one who is not justified by the blood of His Son, will ever be "called" by God through the Spirit...
nor will they ever be glorified with new bodies at the first resurrection.

Therefore, if we have believed on Christ, then His blood justifies us.
That justification is a direct result of all the rest.
Our being glorified with new bodies is a direct result of all that came before, by the hand of a merciful and loving God.

Some people call this "the unbreakable chain of salvation".
I call it a literal impossibility, according to the words on the page, that anyone outside of this process will ever experience eternal life.


Similar to my post #65 to you above, what do you see when you look at Romans 8:26-30, if I may ask?

its sounds like you have fallen for the ' call ' or ' called ' in a Calvernist sense where they will say that there is a mystical inward effectual call . call call call !!! that only the enlightened ones which experience the awakening irresistibly when the divine fated moment finally comes upon the gnostic frozen chosen.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Sure, Barry.
I'll give you an example:

" Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." ( Acts of the Apostles 18:9-10 )

I see that the Lord told Paul that He had many elect in the city of Corinth, and that he should not be afraid to speak, for He was with him.

Another example:

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 ).

I see that the believers at Jerusalem praised God and had favor with all the people.
The Lord added to the church daily, such people as He determined to save...
Those He was minded, should be saved.

One more example:

" Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:24-26 ).

Here I see that the Jews in this passage kept asking the Lord to speak plainly and declare whether or not He was the Christ ( Messiah ).
He told them that He had already done so, and that they had not believed.
He then told them why they did not believe...

Because they were not "of" His sheep.
In other words, they were not His Father's elect and were never given to Him by His Father ( John 6:37, John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ).


What do you see when you read these passages, if I may ask?

OK without context I can see why your using these as proof texts .
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46¶And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
notice again the order. Believing first and then the Lord adds to the Church those being saved . We don't add ourselves into the body of Christ this is a work of the Holy Spirit .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Sure, Barry.
I'll give you an example:

" Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." ( Acts of the Apostles 18:9-10 )

I see that the Lord told Paul that He had many elect in the city of Corinth, and that he should not be afraid to speak, for He was with him.

Another example:

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 ).

I see that the believers at Jerusalem praised God and had favor with all the people.
The Lord added to the church daily, such people as He determined to save...
Those He was minded, should be saved.

One more example:

" Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:24-26 ).

Here I see that the Jews in this passage kept asking the Lord to speak plainly and declare whether or not He was the Christ ( Messiah ).
He told them that He had already done so, and that they had not believed.
He then told them why they did not believe...

Because they were not "of" His sheep.
In other words, they were not His Father's elect and were never given to Him by His Father ( John 6:37, John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ).


What do you see when you read these passages, if I may ask?

The Lord tells that he has many people in the city . why did you add ' many elect people ' lol ??? The sheep are simply the ones that learnt and heard from the Father . simple. why do you believe that they are some secret awakened hindu enlightened chosen ones ? The context tells you who they are.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Sure, Barry.
I'll give you an example:

" Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." ( Acts of the Apostles 18:9-10 )

I see that the Lord told Paul that He had many elect in the city of Corinth, and that he should not be afraid to speak, for He was with him.

Another example:

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 ).

I see that the believers at Jerusalem praised God and had favor with all the people.
The Lord added to the church daily, such people as He determined to save...
Those He was minded, should be saved.

One more example:

" Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:24-26 ).

Here I see that the Jews in this passage kept asking the Lord to speak plainly and declare whether or not He was the Christ ( Messiah ).
He told them that He had already done so, and that they had not believed.
He then told them why they did not believe...

Because they were not "of" His sheep.
In other words, they were not His Father's elect and were never given to Him by His Father ( John 6:37, John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ).


What do you see when you read these passages, if I may ask?

Again you add ' not of his father's elect ' why on earth did you add that ? it doesn't say that . your ignoring the context and adding to the text . They did not believe because they were not like the ones following Yahweh in the old testament. thats it . The ones ( sheep ) that were learning and hearing from the father ( the wise men for example) they believed and heard the Son .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Again you add ' not of his father's elect ' why on earth did you add that ? it doesn't say that . your ignoring the context and adding to the text . They did not believe because they were not like the ones following Yahweh in the old testament. thats it . The ones ( sheep ) that were learning and hearing from the father ( the wise men for example , nathaniel , John the baptist ) they believed and heard the Son .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Here is the passage in Romans 8:26-30:

" Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

what does ' called ' mean to you ?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Regarding the second view that you present, the verse is clear that "whom he called, them he also justified". The notion that all are called and only those who respond will be justified goes against the text.

Of the three views, the first that you mentioned seems to be the only free will view that can withstand this passage.

First view mentioned:

Notice the order given is this passage:

Foreknown
Predestinated
Called
Justified
Glorified

You state: "Of the three views, the first that you mentioned seems to be the only free will view that can withstand this passage." Are you saying that scripture is submissive to free will?