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Offer your scriptural rebuttals to the following

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George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
  • God foreknew (foresaw) who would trust in Christ unto salvation.
  • God also decided to choose those whom he foreknew would believe, irrelevant of their works, to be sanctified (made holy): i.e. God said "Because I know they will trust my Son, I'm going to choose him and him and him to make them holy and without blame". So God wrote down our names based on his foreknowledge. Then upon our belief of the truth, God now practically chose us unto salvation, as he knew would happen.
  • God also predestinated those whom he foreknew would believe to two extra blessings above and beyond strict salvation, namely: their spiritual adoption as children upon the moment of their belief, to be followed by their physical adoption at the moment of their resurrection (of course, salvation and adoption are inseparably connected, but God could have saved us from hell without necessarily making of us his children).
What verses and explanation of the verses would you present in opposition to the above points?

I'm teaching on predestination tomorrow morning at church, so please take your time to present a good scriptural rebuttal. I know you've probably answered these before, but give me a good point-form rebuttal. Something for future reference.

We may not agree, but I need your best to properly represent your position.

Thanks.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
What verses and explanation of the verses would you present in opposition to the above points?
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The verses are as follows:

Psalms 65:4.
John 6:29
John 6:37-40.
John 6:44.
John 6:64-65.
John 10:26.
John 17:2.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:28-30.
Romans 9:22-24.
Ephesians 1:4-5.
Ephesians 1:11.
Ephesians 2:10.
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
2 Timothy 1:9.
1 Peter 1:1-2.

No explanations, as I feel the verses should explain themselves when read in context with the verses around them.
George Antonios said:
I'm teaching on predestination tomorrow morning at church, so please take your time to present a good scriptural rebuttal. I know you've probably answered these before, but give me a good point-form rebuttal. Something for future reference.

We may not agree, but I need your best to properly represent your position.
Click to expand...
I have a suggestion...
Instead of preaching tomorrow on what you think the Scriptures mean, how about simply reading them one at a time and then asking for a show of hands from various members of the congregation what they think each one means?

Call it a "survey"...
I think you may find that there are some in your congregation that do not see them as you do.;)


Good evening to you sir.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
So would anyone who isn't as noble as our brother up there like to actually write the main verses out and explain how they think they contradict the OP?
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
George Antonios,
This is fatally flawed right from the start. The biblical teaching of foreknowledge is of persons not events seen here in Romans 8:29,30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Clearly persons are in view.

This is now the second falsehood based on the misunderstood term who He did Foreknow. Here from the 1689;
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

  • irrelevant of their works, to be sanctified (made holy): i.e. God said "Because I know they will trust my Son, I'm going to choose him and him and him to make them holy and without blame". So God wrote down our names based on his foreknowledge. Then upon our belief of the truth, God now practically chose us unto salvation, as he knew would happen.[/QUOTE]\
    Click to expand...
When you made the first error, the floodgates were open for these additional errors.Truth will remain concealed once this process has gone wrong from the start.


  • God also predestinated those whom he foreknew would believe to two extra blessings above and beyond strict salvation, namely: their spiritual adoption as children upon the moment of their belief, to be followed by their physical adoption at the moment of their resurrection (of course, salvation and adoption are inseparably connected, but God could have saved us from hell without necessarily making of us his children).
    Click to expand...
  • No, God is not a spectator watching and learning what might happen.
  • He determines what is going on.
  • deut32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

  • 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

    41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

    42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

    43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
  • isa46:
    9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
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J

JD731

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
I do, but there are many Calvinists on the board who are ever ready to correct heresy so I'm a little surprised at the view/reply ratio.
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George, I see that you need some help and so here goes.

God’s Purpose in mentioning foreknowledge is not to teach us that he knew certain people before he created the world and because he knew them then he would save them. I think this is what Calvinism teaches and believes. It is an error.

Just looking at the phrase,”foundation of the world” which I suppose most people believes it is a reference to creation, I find that of the ten times it is mentioned in scripture that three time it has “before” preceding it, once it has the word “since” preceding it and six times it has the word “from” preceding it. What do you make of that? We are both real smart and we know that the word before would take us precreation and the word from and since would put us on this side creation. When you read foundation of the world do you always view it in eternity?

Now, the Bible does not say God knew us in eternity but it does say he knew Christ in eternity in Eph 1. The word he uses in Ephesians 1:4 is not foreknowledge but chosen. God chose those who are “in Christ” in these days when he is forming his church, the body of Christ, over which he is the head. It is God the Father who chooses those who are in Christ but it is not the Father who puts them into Christ. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. He baptizes every believer into the body according to 1 Cor 12:13. He not only puts them into the body of Christ but he places them as functioning members according to the special ministry gifts he gives each one. This is so the individual members and the collective body will function flawlessly under the head. This chapter deals with the ministry of all 3 members of the Godhead in relation to the one body in Christ. I suggest you note the divisions in this chapter and believe the truth.

Next, Eph 1:1-12 is Jewish in nature. The purpose of Ephesians is to shed light on “the mystery of Christ” which is the theme of this glorious epistle. It is not a mystery that God is going to save Israel as a single entity made up of all her members over whom he is King but the purpose of God to form his church, his family , his bride from both Jewish and gentile believers in the gospel of Christ was not a matter of OT prophecy but was specially revealed to the special called Paul, whom God made the apostle of grace and sent him to gentiles with this wonderful good news.

Ephesians 3:6 is the clearest single verse definition of this mystery. There remains an element of mystery to these truths and men without the Spirit to reveal the truth about it will remain in darkness. They might even teach that God knew them in eternity and chose them to be saved. They would be in great error and maybe some danger.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
George Antonios said:
About 100 views and 2 replies? One just listing verses and the other going off into the song of Moses?
Anyone?
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Perhaps others are concerned that we are discussing this while some believers are out preaching far greater truths at the risk of far greater conflict. :Wink
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
JD731 said:
George, I see that you need some help and so here goes.

God’s Purpose in mentioning foreknowledge is not to teach us that he knew certain people before he created the world and because he knew them then he would save them. I think this is what Calvinism teaches and believes. It is an error.

Just looking at the phrase,”foundation of the world” which I suppose most people believes it is a reference to creation, I find that of the ten times it is mentioned in scripture that three time it has “before” preceding it, once it has the word “since” preceding it and six times it has the word “from” preceding it. What do you make of that? We are both real smart and we know that the word before would take us precreation and the word from and since would put us on this side creation. When you read foundation of the world do you always view it in eternity?

Now, the Bible does not say God knew us in eternity but it does say he knew Christ in eternity in Eph 1. The word he uses in Ephesians 1:4 is not foreknowledge but chosen. God chose those who are “in Christ” in these days when he is forming his church, the body of Christ, over which he is the head. It is God the Father who chooses those who are in Christ but it is not the Father who puts them into Christ. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. He baptizes every believer into the body according to 1 Cor 12:13. He not only puts them into the body of Christ but he places them as functioning members according to the special ministry gifts he gives each one. This is so the individual members and the collective body will function flawlessly under the head. This chapter deals with the ministry of all 3 members of the Godhead in relation to the one body in Christ. I suggest you note the divisions in this chapter and believe the truth.

Next, Eph 1:1-12 is Jewish in nature. The purpose of Ephesians is to shed light on “the mystery of Christ” which is the theme of this glorious epistle. It is not a mystery that God is going to save Israel as a single entity made up of all her members over whom he is King but the purpose of God to form his church, his family , his bride from both Jewish and gentile believers in the gospel of Christ was not a matter of OT prophecy but was specially revealed to the special called Paul, whom God made the apostle of grace and sent him to gentiles with this wonderful good news.

Ephesians 3:6 is the clearest single verse definition of this mystery. There remains an element of mystery to these truths and men without the Spirit to reveal the truth about it will remain in darkness. They might even teach that God knew them in eternity and chose them to be saved. They would be in great error and maybe some danger.
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I'm not sure what happened here. I'm not a Calvinist. I want Calvinist rebuttals, by verses, to the OP.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Cut and paste from Thayer’s:
STRONGS NT 4267: προγινώσκω
προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29 (τῶν εἰς αὐτόν (Χριστόν) πιστεύειν προεγνωσμενων, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho, c. 42; προγινώσκει (ὁ Θεός) τινας ἐκ μετανοίας σωθήσεσθαι μέλλοντας, id. Apology 1:28); ὅν προέγνω, whose character he clearly saw beforehand, Rom. 11: (1 Lachmann in brackets), Romans 11:2 (against those who in the preceding passages from Rom. explain προγινώσκειν as meaning to predestinate,cf. Meyer, Philippi, Van Hengel); προεγνωσμένου, namely, ὑπό τοῦ Θεοῦ(foreknown by God, although not yet 'made manifest' to men), 1 Peter 1:20. (Wis. 6:14 Wis. 8:8 Wis. 18:6; Euripides, Xenophon, Plato, Herodian, Philostr., others.)

​
verses containing the word:

[Acts 26:5 KJV] 5 Which knew[G4267] me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
  • “knew from the beginning” refers to a person, not information.
  • The people referenced did not know ABOUT Paul, they actually KNEW Paul.
  • Foreknow is about an interpersonal relationship.

[Romans 8:29 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow,[G4267] he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
  • Again foreknow refers to God knowing people, not facts or actions.

[Romans 11:2 KJV] 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.[G4267] Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
  • Again foreknow refers to God knowing people, not facts or actions.

[1 Peter 1:20 KJV] 20 Who verily was foreordained[G4267] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
  • “Who” indicated that it was a person that was “foreordained“ and not a fact or an action.

[2 Peter 3:17 KJV] 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before,[G4267] beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
  • The only verse in which “know before” refers to information; it is people who know information about something.

As stated by another poster that you brushed off as ...
George Antonios said:
going off into the song of Moses?
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... You have gotten “foreknowledge” wrong right out of the gate and built a house of cards upon a foundation of sand.

God knew (interpersonal relationship) the people that God would save BEFORE, scripture does not teach that God knew their decisions except in the sense that God is omniscient. However if you are going to flippantly dismiss the answers when you request them, why are you surprised that so few Calvinists waste time answering you?
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
George Antonios said:
Wow, that really hit a nerve eh?
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No. I just thought it was funny. :Laugh

I do believe that theology has to be able to adapt in the sense it has to answer questions and address issues that are contemporary to a people. I thought Iconoclast's thread was a very good topic.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
No. I just thought it was funny. :Laugh

I do believe that theology has to be able to adapt in the sense it has to answer questions and address issues that are contemporary to a people. I thought Iconoclast's thread was a very good topic.
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Ok fine
 
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