Offer your scriptural rebuttals to the following

[atpollard]

• God also decided to choose those whom he foreknew would believe, irrelevant of their works, to be sanctified (made holy): i.e. God said "Because I know they will trust my Son, I'm going to choose him and him and him to make them holy and without blame". So God wrote down our names based on his foreknowledge. Then upon our belief of the truth, God now practically chose us unto salvation, as he knew would happen.

That sounds like their belief to me, at least one of their false ones. That GOD CHOSE, not Man chose God.

Quoting scripture is often mistaken for Calvinist teaching.

 

[Miss E]

"whom he foreknew would believe"

choose

You forgot the key word

 

[George Antonios]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

προγινώσκω;

2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω;

perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος;

to have knowledge of beforehand;

to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16;

τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29 (τῶν εἰς αὐτόν (Χριστόν) πιστεύειν προεγνωσμενων, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho, c. 42;

προγινώσκει (ὁ Θεός) τινας ἐκ μετανοίας σωθήσεσθαι μέλλοντας, id. Apology 1:28);

ὅν προέγνω, whose character he clearly saw beforehand, Rom. 11: (1 Lachmann in brackets), Romans 11:2 (against those who in the preceding passages from Rom. explain προγινώσκειν as meaning to predestinate, cf. Meyer, Philippi, Van Hengel);

προεγνωσμένου, namely, ὑπό τοῦ Θεοῦ (foreknown by God, although not yet 'made manifest' to men), 1 Peter 1:20.
(Wis. 6:14 Wis. 8:8 Wis. 18:6; Euripides, Xenophon, Plato, Herodian, Philostr., others.)

Is this freely accessible online?

 

[Miss E]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

προγινώσκω;

2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω;

perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος;

to have knowledge of beforehand;

to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16;

τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29 (τῶν εἰς αὐτόν (Χριστόν) πιστεύειν προεγνωσμενων, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho, c. 42;

προγινώσκει (ὁ Θεός) τινας ἐκ μετανοίας σωθήσεσθαι μέλλοντας, id. Apology 1:28);

ὅν προέγνω, whose character he clearly saw beforehand, Rom. 11: (1 Lachmann in brackets), Romans 11:2 (against those who in the preceding passages from Rom. explain προγινώσκειν as meaning to predestinate, cf. Meyer, Philippi, Van Hengel);

προεγνωσμένου, namely, ὑπό τοῦ Θεοῦ (foreknown by God, although not yet 'made manifest' to men), 1 Peter 1:20.
(Wis. 6:14 Wis. 8:8 Wis. 18:6; Euripides, Xenophon, Plato, Herodian, Philostr., others.)

I'm not saying God didn't KNOW BEFOREHAND WHO WOULD CHOOSE HIM.

But 'knowing' and 'making' are two different things. God doesn't make anyone choose Him, otherwise, all would be saved since if God is all loving He would choose to save everyone despite the fact we shouldn't be saved period since we are sinful and undeserving of God's presence in our lives. But God gives man a CHOICE to choose Him, making Him a Just and Merciful lord to whom choose to believe upon His son.

Yes, God knows who will choose him in the end, that doesn't mean he MADE anyone choose him.

No one is denying God's all knowing knowledge here. I'm just pointing out the simple truth of the Gospel. Which is what everyone should be focused on and not all this mindless debate.

 

[George Antonios]

choose

You forgot the key word

Of course "choose", because God chooses those who believe on him.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Of course, the Calvinist counter-objection to that: Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, is irrelevant because the context is the ministry, not salvation, the full verse reading: Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[George Antonios]

Quoting scripture is often mistaken for Calvinist teaching.

A) I didn't quote scripture
B) There have been more than one person on either side of the argument that took to the OP for representing the other side

 

[Miss E]

elieve on him.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God

Of course "choose", because God chooses those who believe on him.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Of course, the Calvinist counter-objection to that: Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, is irrelevant because the context is the ministry, not salvation, the full verse reading: Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Okay, saying in that sense makes me agree. Yes, after we choose to believe upon Jesus, God did choose us.

 

[atpollard]

King James Concordance:
G4267
προγινώσκω proginōskō
Total KJV Occurrences: 6

know 1 before 1
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

• People know information, like in this verse.
  

foreknew, 1
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

• God foreknew "His people" ... relation, not facts.

foreknow, 1
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

• "whom" God foreknew ... God foreknows people, not facts.

foreordained, 1
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

• "who" was foreordained ... God foreknows people, not facts.

knew, 1
Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

• knew "me" (an experiential relationship) not "about me" (second hand facts).

In scripture, only people foreknow facts; God foreknows people.

 

[atpollard]

A) I didn't quote scripture
B) There have been more than one person on either side of the argument that took to the OP for representing the other side

Irrelevant. I owed her a tease because she responded to my comment with a statement about not answering a fool according to his folly.

 

[Miss E]

In scripture, only people foreknow facts; God foreknows people

But the fact that I am a person makes me a fact. So people can foreknow people. Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[atpollard]

God is all loving

Where is this taught?
What does "all loving" even mean?

 

[Miss E]

Where is this taught?
What does "all loving" even mean?

All loving, BUT all holy. So He is a God of Justice and a God of Love.

Does not the Bible say God is love?

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4:8)

I was just using that side of Him as an example of the foolishness of God choosing who to save or not. I guess you could also say that if God chose who to save He wouldn't' save anyone since NNE is worthy to be saved. But That is why God is not only all loving, all holy, he is all merciful.

 

[atpollard]

Is this freely accessible online?

I read it on the Blue Letter Bible [link]

Here is the copyright data:
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

 

[37818]

Election is simply to service . it is not related to salvation.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit . . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Iconoclast]

About 100 views and 2 replies? One just listing verses and the other going off into the song of Moses?
Anyone?

You did not respond to the romans portion, but tried to sneak around it. I think you have no biblical response to it.
The Song of Moses establishes God as the complete sovereign in control of this whole process, as does Isa46:9-11.
We can offer the verses ,but you need to read them asking God for understanding.

 

[George Antonios]

You did not respond to the romans portion, but tried to sneak around it. I think you have no biblical response to it.

I haven't responded to a number of posts as I'm generally waiting for more to come in and the immediate purpose of this thread is not debate. In some cases, yes I have responded, to yours I haven't. If you think that the only explanation is because there's no reply, fine by me brother

 

[1689Dave]

Man is spirit, soul, and flesh. You have reduced him to just flesh. Will is a function of the human spirit:
Exo_35:21 And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.
And since no one could be born again before the resurrection of Christ, according to Peter:
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(Christ did not chide with Nicodemus for not being born again but for being ignorant of the matter since it had been prophesied in the Old Testament in such passages as Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31)

Then you have unregenerate men whose spirits made willing.

Paul commanded us to rightly divide the scriptures to understand them, and that includes dividing between spirit, soul, and flesh.

Scripture says the spirit is dead (to God) and is enslaved to sin (the flesh). You can do nothing but sin until God imparts the new birth. In the flesh, even your attempt to "choose" a Christ is for sinful reasons and ends up idolatry.

 

[37818]

What verses and explanation of the verses would you present in opposition to the above points?

There are no verses that teach "God does not foresee." Futhermore God being omniscient does not need to foresee anything.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit . . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[George Antonios]

know 1 before 1
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

• People know information, like in this verse.

foreknew, 1
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

• God foreknew "His people" ... relation, not facts.

A) Honestly now, is that not a very weak base for a major theology?

B) So people foreknow facts, but God doesn't. What a puny "sovereign" God of Calvinism that is!

C) God does foreknow facts:

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Jer_29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

Isa 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isa 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

D) Just because some verses speak of God foreknowing people (even though, in the intimate Calvinistic sense, that contradicts Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God) it does not logically follow that therefore God does not foreknow facts. Declaring that God foreknows A does not imply that God does not foreknow B.

E) Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. That's fore-knowledge by definition. Now connect that to: Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
And you've got God foreknowing the wicked. Yet God can't intimately know a lost man who is outside of Christ and unredeemed, so it must be foreknowledge in the sense of foresight.

 

[George Antonios]

Scripture says the spirit is dead (to God) and is enslaved to sin (the flesh). You can do nothing but sin until God imparts the new birth. In the flesh, even your attempt to "choose" a Christ is for sinful reasons and ends up idolatry.

Scripture ALSO says that that dead spirit can make a man willing and scripture ALSO says that:
Pro_20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
So that dead spirit still has light.
We must take the entirety of scriptures on a subject and not trust our reasoning alone.