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Offer your scriptural rebuttals to the following

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Jul 11, 2020.

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  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Ancient Greek words each have several definitions. You cannot use Webster's dictionary to understand the Bible.
     
    #81 1689Dave, Jul 16, 2020
  2. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure my Bible is English.
     
    #82 George Antonios, Jul 16, 2020
  3. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But the ancient Greek words have many different meanings. Look at how all the different translations use variations of the same word.
     
    #83 1689Dave, Jul 16, 2020
  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know, I'm originally Greek - "Antonios" and my mother was "Spiridou".
    But I'm telling you that my Bible is English, not Greek, and there is no verse telling me to run to the Greek. Not one.
     
    #84 George Antonios, Jul 16, 2020
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  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9!
     
    #85 atpollard, Jul 16, 2020
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But unless you use an ancient greek dictionary, you do not have direct exposure to God's word. It's only someone's opinion about what God's word says.
     
    #86 1689Dave, Jul 16, 2020
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    #87 George Antonios, Jul 16, 2020
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Prove that point with scripture. If it was so vital and important, God would have told us.

    In a previous thread I listed all the verses that teach that a copied translation can be given by inspiration.

    If you wish to discuss that, sure, just begin another thread so we don't lose our way in this one.
     
    #88 George Antonios, Jul 16, 2020
  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    How many translations do you have? That proves it when you research a passage using them.
     
    #89 1689Dave, Jul 16, 2020
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ironically Calvinism itself (historic Calvinism, not "Calvinistic Baptists") holds that foreknowledge is pre-knowledge (technically agreeing with George) but a pre-knowledge based on divine decree (Calvinism separates foreknowledge from decree, basing the former on the latter).

    Calvinism explains foreknowledge as God knowing what would occur because God has decreed that it occur. (see Institutes for Calvin's explanation). The neo-Calvinistic definition combines the decree with foreknowledge (God knew in a relational sense persons who are "foreknown).
     
    #90 JonC, Jul 16, 2020
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  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    No wonder! Could you please provide exact references? If possible and not too much trouble. Thanks.
     
    #91 George Antonios, Jul 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  12. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    #92 George Antonios, Jul 16, 2020
  13. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Just yesterday I claimed the Broken Off Jews were under God's wrath until the end of time. Based on a Greek definition of the English word "uttermost"

    “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (NCPB)

    This can be understood according to your millennial bias. But the Greek defines it as the end. Which does not allow for a national conversion of pagan Israel.
     
    #93 1689Dave, Jul 16, 2020
  14. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Ακόμα δεν υπάρχει στίχος που να δικαιολογεί την επιστροφή στο "πρωτότυπο ελληνικό", ε?
    Translation:
    Still no verse to justify going back to "the original Greek", eh?
     
    #94 George Antonios, Jul 16, 2020
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We must therefore come to that smaller number whom Paul elsewhere describes as foreknown of God (Rom. 11:2); not foreknown, as
    these men imagine, by idle, inactive contemplations but in the sense which it often bears. For surely when Peter says that Christ was "delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God," (Acts 2:23), he does not represent God as contemplating merely, but as actually accomplishing our salvation. Thus also Peter, in saying that the believers to whom he writes are elect "according to the foreknowledge of God," (1 Pet. 1:2), properly expresses that secret predestination by which God has sealed those whom he has been pleased to adopt as sons. In using the term purpose as synonymous with a term which uniformly denotes what is called a fixed determination, he undoubtedly shows that God, in being the author of our salvation, does not go beyond himself. In this sense he says in the same chapters that Christ as "a lamb" "was foreordained before the creation of the world," (1 Pet. 1:19, 20). Calvin, John. Institutes of the Christian Religion (Kindle Locations 17467-17475). Signalman Publishing. Kindle Edition.

    And from his commentary on Romans:

    But the foreknowledge of God, which Paul mentions, is not a bare prescience, as some unwise persons absurdly imagine, but the adoption by which he had always distinguished his children from the reprobate. [269] In the same sense Peter says, that the faithful had been elected to the sanctification of the Spirit according to the foreknowledge of God. Hence those, to whom I have alluded, foolishly draw this inference, -- That God has elected none but those whom he foresaw would be worthy of his grace. Peter does not in deed flatter the faithful, as though every one had been elected on account of his merit; but by reminding them of the eternal counsel of God, he wholly deprives them of all worthiness. So Paul does in this passage, who repeats by another word what he had said before of God's purpose. It hence follows, that this knowledge is connected with God's good pleasure; for he foreknew nothing out of himself, in adopting those whom he was pleased to adopt; but only marked out those whom he had purposed to elect.

    Calvinism does not agree with you on the whole topic, but Calvinism does in the use of "foreknowledge" alone.

    The difference, of course, is that Calvinism does not take divine foreknowledge alone (it connects foreknowledge to decree, and in the case of Romans 8 to God's degree in terms of election).

    But we always have to remember that "Calvinism" is not always Calvinism. Here you are arguing against a neo-Calvinism (not necessary VERY new, but also not as old as Calvinism itself). So it may not be fair to use historical Calvinism as a proof.
     
    #95 JonC, Jul 16, 2020
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  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Act 26:5
    since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion. Here the word translated "known" is the same Greek word translated everywhere else as foreknown or known beforehand. Note the idea is to use information from the past (Paul's childhood) to acknowledge Paul was raised as a Pharisee. This has nothing whatever to do with foreseeing the future.

    Romans 8:29
    For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Note the idea is implementing a plan formulated in the past.

    Romans 11:2
    God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? Again, note the idea is treating people in the present according to the promised plan of the past.

    1Peter 1:20
    For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
    Again, the redemption plan formulated before creation is being implemented in the present.

    2Peter 3:17
    You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, Here our word is translated so the idea of using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, during the present (being on guard) is clearly presented.

    And here are the other two places the related Greek word appears in scripture:

    Acts of the Apostles 2:23
    this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. Here the implementation of a plan formulated in the past can plainly be seen.

    1Peter1:2
    according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. And once again the redemption plan has us being chosen by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit setting us apart in Christ for the purpose of redemption.[/QUOTE]


    This is a great post. I like it.
     
    #96 JD731, Jul 16, 2020
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This is a great post. I like it.[/QUOTE]

    You made my day! Thanks Van
     
    #97 Van, Jul 16, 2020
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  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    not at all.
    you and others seek to oppose the biblical usage of the term.
    Paul the Apostle was not confused and the Spirit made sure he wrote what believers need to know.
    no mlm philosophy, just biblical teaching pure and simple.
     
    #98 Iconoclast, Jul 16, 2020
  19. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    It presumes to make God right in his decision to save some and goes beyond what is written. Infants that die in abortions never would have believed according to your position.
     
    #99 Sai, Jul 16, 2020
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    yes we were also chosen to be saved by the ' vehicle ' through sanctification and believing the Gosepl . The idea was that salvation could have been ' Jews only ' but Paul is comforting those that were thinking they had been left to ' strong delusion and the antichrist '
    context, context , context .
    its never ' chosen to be saved ' . Here its the chosen vehicle of how they were saved from the beginning.
     
    #100 Barry Johnson, Jul 17, 2020
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