1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Ancient Greek words each have several definitions. You cannot use Webster's dictionary to understand the Bible.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Offer your scriptural rebuttals to the following
- Thread starter George Antonios
- Start date
- Status
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure my Bible is English.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But the ancient Greek words have many different meanings. Look at how all the different translations use variations of the same word.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know, I'm originally Greek - "Antonios" and my mother was "Spiridou".
But I'm telling you that my Bible is English, not Greek, and there is no verse telling me to run to the Greek. Not one.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Romans 9!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But unless you use an ancient greek dictionary, you do not have direct exposure to God's word. It's only someone's opinion about what God's word says.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Romans 9!
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Prove that point with scripture. If it was so vital and important, God would have told us.
In a previous thread I listed all the verses that teach that a copied translation can be given by inspiration.
If you wish to discuss that, sure, just begin another thread so we don't lose our way in this one.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
How many translations do you have? That proves it when you research a passage using them.
Ironically Calvinism itself (historic Calvinism, not "Calvinistic Baptists") holds that foreknowledge is pre-knowledge (technically agreeing with George) but a pre-knowledge based on divine decree (Calvinism separates foreknowledge from decree, basing the former on the latter).
Calvinism explains foreknowledge as God knowing what would occur because God has decreed that it occur. (see Institutes for Calvin's explanation). The neo-Calvinistic definition combines the decree with foreknowledge (God knew in a relational sense persons who are "foreknown).
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
No wonder! Could you please provide exact references? If possible and not too much trouble. Thanks.
Last edited:
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Just yesterday I claimed the Broken Off Jews were under God's wrath until the end of time. Based on a Greek definition of the English word "uttermost"
“forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (NCPB)
This can be understood according to your millennial bias. But the Greek defines it as the end. Which does not allow for a national conversion of pagan Israel.
“forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (NCPB)
This can be understood according to your millennial bias. But the Greek defines it as the end. Which does not allow for a national conversion of pagan Israel.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Ακόμα δεν υπάρχει στίχος που να δικαιολογεί την επιστροφή στο "πρωτότυπο ελληνικό", ε?
Translation:
Still no verse to justify going back to "the original Greek", eh?
We must therefore come to that smaller number whom Paul elsewhere describes as foreknown of God (Rom. 11:2); not foreknown, as
these men imagine, by idle, inactive contemplations but in the sense which it often bears. For surely when Peter says that Christ was "delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God," (Acts 2:23), he does not represent God as contemplating merely, but as actually accomplishing our salvation. Thus also Peter, in saying that the believers to whom he writes are elect "according to the foreknowledge of God," (1 Pet. 1:2), properly expresses that secret predestination by which God has sealed those whom he has been pleased to adopt as sons. In using the term purpose as synonymous with a term which uniformly denotes what is called a fixed determination, he undoubtedly shows that God, in being the author of our salvation, does not go beyond himself. In this sense he says in the same chapters that Christ as "a lamb" "was foreordained before the creation of the world," (1 Pet. 1:19, 20). Calvin, John. Institutes of the Christian Religion (Kindle Locations 17467-17475). Signalman Publishing. Kindle Edition.
And from his commentary on Romans:
But the foreknowledge of God, which Paul mentions, is not a bare prescience, as some unwise persons absurdly imagine, but the adoption by which he had always distinguished his children from the reprobate. [269] In the same sense Peter says, that the faithful had been elected to the sanctification of the Spirit according to the foreknowledge of God. Hence those, to whom I have alluded, foolishly draw this inference, -- That God has elected none but those whom he foresaw would be worthy of his grace. Peter does not in deed flatter the faithful, as though every one had been elected on account of his merit; but by reminding them of the eternal counsel of God, he wholly deprives them of all worthiness. So Paul does in this passage, who repeats by another word what he had said before of God's purpose. It hence follows, that this knowledge is connected with God's good pleasure; for he foreknew nothing out of himself, in adopting those whom he was pleased to adopt; but only marked out those whom he had purposed to elect.
Calvinism does not agree with you on the whole topic, but Calvinism does in the use of "foreknowledge" alone.
The difference, of course, is that Calvinism does not take divine foreknowledge alone (it connects foreknowledge to decree, and in the case of Romans 8 to God's degree in terms of election).
But we always have to remember that "Calvinism" is not always Calvinism. Here you are arguing against a neo-Calvinism (not necessary VERY new, but also not as old as Calvinism itself). So it may not be fair to use historical Calvinism as a proof.
Act 26:5
since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion. Here the word translated "known" is the same Greek word translated everywhere else as foreknown or known beforehand. Note the idea is to use information from the past (Paul's childhood) to acknowledge Paul was raised as a Pharisee. This has nothing whatever to do with foreseeing the future.
Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Note the idea is implementing a plan formulated in the past.
Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? Again, note the idea is treating people in the present according to the promised plan of the past.
1Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
Again, the redemption plan formulated before creation is being implemented in the present.
2Peter 3:17
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, Here our word is translated so the idea of using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, during the present (being on guard) is clearly presented.
And here are the other two places the related Greek word appears in scripture:
Acts of the Apostles 2:23
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. Here the implementation of a plan formulated in the past can plainly be seen.
1Peter1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. And once again the redemption plan has us being chosen by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit setting us apart in Christ for the purpose of redemption.[/QUOTE]
This is a great post. I like it.
not at all.
you and others seek to oppose the biblical usage of the term.
Paul the Apostle was not confused and the Spirit made sure he wrote what believers need to know.
no mlm philosophy, just biblical teaching pure and simple.
Sai
Well-Known Member
It presumes to make God right in his decision to save some and goes beyond what is written. Infants that die in abortions never would have believed according to your position.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
yes we were also chosen to be saved by the ' vehicle ' through sanctification and believing the Gosepl . The idea was that salvation could have been ' Jews only ' but Paul is comforting those that were thinking they had been left to ' strong delusion and the antichrist '
context, context , context .
its never ' chosen to be saved ' . Here its the chosen vehicle of how they were saved from the beginning.
- Status