He Who Covers Sin Shall Not Prosper

[Iconoclast]

Icon you need serious help.

So RM,
your idea.of help was to.offer no scripture as usual,but rather a little drive by post with unkind idea expressed,is that about it?

 

[JonC]

The proverb does not specify if it is a professed. believer or not.
it simply states HE THAT COVERETH SIN.....
There is no as you say,ot.legalism.
Christian's obey the law of God, we are law keepers.

I think what you are missing is that Christians do not walk in darkness, they walk in the light. While they may commit sin they are not mastered by sin. In other words, sin is not the mark of their lives. It is not necessary that we sin, in fact it is wrong that we do. Christians should be expected NOT TO sin.

In the example I gave I realized I was wrong (God convicted me of my sin; He disciplines those who are His own) and I responded (I repented, forgave the man who made false accusations, apologized for my behavior, and left that behavior). The other man seems to be obsessed with (mastered by or addicted to) his sin. He professes to be Christian but his actions contradict his profession.

God’s work in the life of His children is not in vain. Christians are not mastered by sin.

We do not refrain from sinning in order to be saved. The Christian walks in the Light because that is the result of being in Christ. God produces that result in our lives.

 

[Iconoclast]

We are not under the Law.

I do not know about you, but I am under law to Christ.
I am not an antinomian.
God has placed His law in my heart.
Jesus said if a man loves Him he will keep His commandments

 

[1689Dave]

I do not know about you, but I am under law to Christ.
I am not an antinomian.
God has placed His law in my heart.
Jesus said if a man loves Him he will keep His commandments

The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments). The difference is, God, forced the Jews to act good under threat of death. The New Birth makes a person good so they don't need the Law.

 

[JonC]

The New Birth makes a person good so they don't need the Law.

^^^^^^ THIS! Amen.
We are not under the Law. We are not under the Law TO Christ. We are under the law OF Christ.

 

[JonC]

I do not know about you, but I am under law to Christ.

This is a misunderstanding of Scripture.

We are not under the law TO Christ. We are under the law OF Christ (ὁ νόμος τοῦ Χριστοῦ).

This is a very important distinction. Where you present the law as "to" Christ (a law that you are under to Him) Scripture presents the law of Christ (a law that describes our behavior).

The difference is a works-based salvation vs salvation resulting in a new creation.

 

[Revmitchell]

So RM,
your idea.of help was to.offer no scripture as usual,but rather a little drive by post with unkind idea expressed,is that about it?

1. You already responded to this post in post #10. That fact begs the question why have you responded a second time and in this way?

2. I responded to your response to my post. That fact disproves you accusation of a driveby post.

3. The fact that I did not make a driveby post which is clear you know this is makes it a fact that you have engaged in an intentional misrepresentation of me which is known in scripture as committing the act of a false witness.

Matthew 5:19 includes a false witness in a list of other things that come from evil thoughts. This is not from the character of a believer. As Christians we do not want to be seen acting like unbelievers.

This is one more example of your posts that disgust me.

 

[Reformed]

I do not know about you, but I am under law to Christ.
I am not an antinomian.
God has placed His law in my heart.
Jesus said if a man loves Him he will keep His commandments

Technically we are not under the law to Christ, we are under the law of Christ. Perhaps you mean that?

Yes. God has placed His law in our hearts and our desire should be keep His commandments. We are called to obedience, even though we still sin and transgress God's commandments. Thankfully, all our sins have been atoned for in the person of Jesus Christ. However, that does not change the command to be holy in all our behavior (1 Peter 1:15).

 

[JonC]

Technically we are not under the law to Christ, we are under the law of Christ. Perhaps you mean that?

Yes. God has placed His law in our hearts and our desire should be keep His commandments. We are called to obedience, even though we still sin and transgress God's commandments. Thankfully, all our sins have been atoned for in the person of Jesus Christ. However, that does not change the command to be holy in all our behavior (1 Peter 1:15).

Do you believe that it should be expected of Christians not to sin?

I ask because sometimes it seems that sin is expected as the norm rather than the exception when it comes to the life of a believer. John said that he wrote that we would not sin, but if we did we have a Mediator. That seems (in my understanding) that we live in the expectation (perhaps hope) that we will not sin.

What do you think?

 

[JonC]

This is what I am speaking of:


1 John 1:5-2:6 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


It seems to me that Christians sometimes live as if sin is a little thing that is expected and is necessarily a part of our lives because we are not yet “perfected”. But it seems that John wrote that we would not sin.

I think that there is a difference between committing a sin and walking in the darkness (in the example I had given the person who was unrepentant was “walking in the darkness”). I believe this because if we walk in the Light the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

But what of men who profess to be saved while remaining in sin? In my example I spoke of a man who continued to make false accusations (not just about me), made intentional misrepresentations, and was guilty of being a false witness. This marked his online conduct.

 

[Iconoclast]

Technically we are not under the law to Christ, we are under the law of Christ. Perhaps you mean that?

Yes. God has placed His law in our hearts and our desire should be keep His commandments. We are called to obedience, even though we still sin and transgress God's commandments. Thankfully, all our sins have been atoned for in the person of Jesus Christ. However, that does not change the command to be holy in all our behavior (1 Peter 1:15).

Hello reformed, I was using this last couple of weeks in the truck I had to a New King James Version and away at "verse 21 is to those who are without law as without law than in parenthesis it's as not being without law toward God but under law toward Christ that I may windows who are without law .

And young's literal translation it says to those without law as without law not being without law to God but within law to Christ that I may gain those without the law.
I
when I made the statement was not trying to exegete the Greek .


In other words we are not under the law of Moses but the law of Christ.
however I said it or post it I don't go for this antinomian idea that christians are not on the law that's an ungodly unbiblical .
any who believe that either haven't studied it out or they're just the opposing God's truth let's put it that way.
The 1689 confession of Faith 1689 Dave would do well to look up chapter 19 ;5 ,6 ,and 7

 

[JonC]

any who believe that either haven't studied it out or they're just the opposing God's truth let's put it that way.

To be fair, those who disagreed did so because they have studied and recognized, as @Reformed did, that your statement was technically incorrect.

It is not right to insult others for not assuming what you meant.

We always need to take responsibility for our actions and words.

Things can easily get misunderstood when speaking of the law and salvation if we are not careful in conveying our meaning.

 

[Reformed]

In other words we are not under the law of Moses but the law of Christ.
however I said it or post it I don't go for this antinomian idea that christians are not on the law that's an ungodly unbiblical

I concur. Some people bristle at this thought because they wrongly think it places us under the curse of the Law. Not one of the commandments in the Decalogue has been abrogated. We are still not to murder or take the Lord's name in vain. However, if (and more aptly, "when") we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). As I said before, our sin has been atoned for, but that does not change the fact that we are commanded not to sin.

 

[JonC]

I concur. Some people bristle at this thought because they wrongly think it places us under the curse of the Law. Not one of the commandments in the Decalogue has been abrogated. We are still not to murder or take the Lord's name in vain. However, if (and more aptly, "when") we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). As I said before, our sin has been atoned for, but that does not change the fact that we are commanded not to sin.

There is a huge difference. Where the Law was prescriptive and showed man their sin by magnifying human sinfulness the law of Christ is descriptive as the fruit of the Spirit demonstrating a new birth.

What caused "bristling" was the idea that we are under a law to Christ rather than the law of Christ. The former indicates a law leading to salvation rather than salvation leading to obedience.

 

[Iconoclast]

I concur. Some people bristle at this thought because they wrongly think it places us under the curse of the Law. Not one of the commandments in the Decalogue has been abrogated. We are still not to murder or take the Lord's name in vain. However, if (and more aptly, "when") we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). As I said before, our sin has been atoned for, but that does not change the fact that we are commanded not to sin.

Hello Reformed,


just finished for the day, checking on my wording that came into question;
I posted this by phone as I was on a coffee break'
Iconoclast said: ↑
I do not know about you, but I am under law to Christ.
I am not an antinomian.
God has placed His law in my heart.
Jesus said if a man loves Him he will keep His commandments

Here are some of the translations;
KJV;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Philips;
I cannot be a lawless man for I am bound by the law of Christ),

Nasb;
but under the law of Christ,

but within law to Christ) --
revised Geneva;
but in the Law through Christ)

Wycliff;

but I was in the law of Christ,
Mounce
but subject to the law of Christ

 

[Iconoclast]

1689 Dave said;

The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments). The difference is, God, forced the Jews to act good under threat of death. The New Birth makes a person good so they don't need the Law.

And Yet the 1689 says this; chap.19:
5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )

7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )

 

[Iconoclast]

^^^^^^ THIS! Amen.
We are not under the Law. We are not under the Law TO Christ. We are under the law OF Christ.

wiki-
The law of Christ" (ὁ νόμος τοῦ Χριστοῦ) is a New Testament phrase most likely referring to the two commandments mentioned by Jesus: "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” and “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’” The related Bible verses are in the Pauline Epistles at Galatians 6:2[1] and parenthetically (ἔννομος Χριστῷ "being under the law to Christ") at 1 Corinthians 9:21.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sure, I have some help for you. I doubt youll take it though. You misuse scripture to justify your ungodly behavior. Your posts disgust me. There are plenty of good Christian counselors to walk you through the very needed help you need. I suggest you seek one out soon.

This unkind and graceless post, is not helpful , but indeed a drive by post.
This thread is about covering sin vs confessing and forsaking it. Your useless, graceless post was correctly identified, there was no false witness involved.

False witness is when a person lies, then covers up the lie by saying the people who questioned the lie are unjustly accusing him.
The observation of a lie is not falsely accusing anyone, but rather correctly identifying the problem.
That sin of lying gets compounded when the liar,suggests he is a victim, falsely accused, and points to others rather than himself.

 

[Iconoclast]

getting back to the OP.

Thus is this proverb translated by Luther, and thus it lives in the mouth of the Christian people. He who falsely disowns, or with self-deception excuses, if he does not altogether justify his sins, which are discernible as פּשׁעים , has no success; he remains, after Psalms 32:1-11,

in his conscience and life burdened with a secret ban;

A person keeps repeating themselves to distance themselves from the concealed sin.

Love covereth" our neighbour's sins (Chap. x. 12); pride our own. The proud sinner naturally wishes to be; thought better than he is. His sin must have some cover.* He must at least give it a good name. Isa. v. 20.) He would cover it, if possible, from himself; putting it out of mind; banishing all serious thoughts; stifling conviction; and then trying to persuade himself that he is happy.
To escape evil consequences, a lie is resorted to.†

 

[1689Dave]

1689 Dave said;


And Yet the 1689 says this; chap.19:
5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )

7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )

Please use black letters, the red hurts my eyes. What's your point. Interpret what you are trying to say.