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Featured Monergism/Synergism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Jul 19, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is. And it has amazed me that so many do not see this.

    Armianism WAS Calvinism (and it was within orthodox Calvinism) until the second time it was evaluated by the Synod of Dort.

    Arminianism ASSUMES everything that Calvinism assumes except when it comes to soteriological differences.

    Very good observation. I can see I'm going to like you, Barry (until we talk about my beliefs, anyway :Laugh ).
     
    #41 JonC, Jul 21, 2020
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  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    No eph 2 makes clear that no one will boast . Salvation is the free gift in ephesians 2 ,8and 9 .
    rom 5.2 tells us how we access the grace in Ephesians 2 ,8and 9
    By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    1 cor 1.21 tells us how God has chosen the plan of ephesians 2 . 8and 9 .
    21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    eph 1 tells us the order in which eph 2 ..8and 9 happens .
    13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    There's nothing about calvernism or Arminism that is necessary to mess with those verses ..The T in Tulip is bogus as are the rest of the ULIP . Arminism and Calvernism are not needed . The bible is just fine on its own .
     
    #42 Barry Johnson, Jul 21, 2020
  3. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I get it you're not going to boast. My question is, do you believe you get partial credit for your salvation? It's a simple yes or no answer. I'm not trying to trick you.
     
    #43 Calminian, Jul 21, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All of those fall under either its all of God, or we co operate in the process to have Him be able to save us!
     
    #44 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How can those incapable to believe in Jesus then turn and believe in Him?
     
    #45 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Never was seen as being within the framework of Calvinism proper!
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2020
  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    there you go ..thats the assumption. thats the poison you have swallowed ..No where does the bible say this .
     
    #47 Barry Johnson, Jul 21, 2020
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Arminianism? Yes, it was seen as being within the framework of Calvinism. Arminius argued the position and the first counsel deemed it a difficult position but one within orthodox Calvinism. During Arminius' lifetime his view was within orthodox Calvinism and he died a Calvinist. It was not until the Synod of Dort that it was deemed to be outside of Calvinism.
     
    #48 JonC, Jul 21, 2020
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, that is not true. I think you would do better to learn of other positions.
     
    #49 JonC, Jul 21, 2020
  10. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Arminianism is a reformed protestant theology, as is calvinism. It's true Dort finalized calvinism as it exists today, and some argue Calvin wouldn't be totally onboard. There are other views like pelagianism and semipelagianism and the others you mentioned.

    But I think Y1 also has a point. Calvinism does stand alone in making faith deterministic apart from free will. And some calvinists make Adam's fall deterministic (something I see as problematic).
     
    #50 Calminian, Jul 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    He has a point in that the two are not the same. BUT there was a time when Calvinism included Arminianism (when a counsel reviewed the doctrine and concluded it was within orthodox Calvinism). That's where I'd disagree with Y1.

    But today it is not within Calvinism. It is of a Calvinist trajectory (and it holds many of the same basic presuppositions). But it departs. The same is true of Open Theism (Open Theism is to Arminianism what Arminianism is to Calvinism).

    Personally I view God's will as different from man's will (I'd be a type of compatiblist, I suppose). Man's will functions beneath God's will.
     
    #51 JonC, Jul 21, 2020
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  12. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Not to belabor this, I think your point is fair, but wouldn't it be considered the case that Dort simply went back and found insurmountable inconsistencies with the Arminian points and Calvin's theology? They were, at the very least, extremely successful in swaying Calvin's followers away from Arminius.

    I do agree, that Arminius died with no idea of the controversy that followed.
     
    #52 Calminian, Jul 21, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Original Sin!
     
    #53 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I know of no Calvinist theologian that I have read in Systematic Theology that agrees with you here!
     
    #54 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2020
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Look at each one you mentioned, as most of therm have us assisting God by co operating with sacraments for example!
     
    #55 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2020
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvinists would see us as being totally affected by the fall, and that spiritual dead sinners can do nothing apart from the Grace of God!
     
    #56 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2020
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would you say that once Calvinism was properly defined, that is when the clean break happened?
     
    #57 Yeshua1, Jul 21, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yea, it was a debate within Calvinism. I think what we see is as more strict movement prevailing. Even at the Synod of Dort there were some argued against Limited Atonement (depending on how it was defined). And for most of the history of Calvinism we see one group calling another "hyper".

    Calvinism, of course, is not alone in terms of internal divisions. I suppose all have disagreements with their groups (unless they are a cult, perhaps) because we all see things a bit different.

    Some of us are just a little more...... unique...than others. :Biggrin
     
    #58 JonC, Jul 21, 2020
  19. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I would think so, yes.
     
    #59 Calminian, Jul 21, 2020
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Thats not a bible verse is it ?
     
    #60 Barry Johnson, Jul 21, 2020
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