How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.

[1689Dave]

How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.

The 5 points lined up originally since Calvin taught universal atonement. This made faith and the word the means of salvation.

But Dort. Removed universal atonement and made Christ’s shed blood, limited to the elect, the means of salvation. This means the blood saves from eternity, even infants, and those elect beyond the reach of the gospel.

It is true the gospel saves us from ourselves and others in time. But the blood of Christ secured our salvation in eternity.

We notice the fruit of the Spirit in Cornelius, Lydia, and others long before hearing about Christ.

But point 4 “effectual calling” still tries to use the old logic that faith and the word are the means of salvation.

Point 4 should read something like “all redeemed by Christ from eternity will be born-again at any time of life and manifest the fruits of the Spirit. They will also believe in Christ through the gospel when exposed. This explains how many OT saints including Abel were saved centuries before the gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

It is true the gospel saves us from ourselves and others in time. But the blood of Christ secured our salvation in eternity.

Cool. You're sounding like an Old Baptist.

Point 4 should read something like “all redeemed by Christ from eternity will be born-again at any time of life and manifest the fruits of the Spirit. They will also believe in Christ through the gospel when exposed. This explains how many OT saints including Abel were saved centuries before the gospel.

John 3:8 explains 'how' nicely, I think: "The Spirit where He willeth doth blow". (and I prefer 'born from above' to 'born again')

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

 

[1689Dave]

Cool. You're sounding like an Old Baptist.



John 3:8 explains 'how' nicely, I think: "The Spirit where He willeth doth blow". (and I prefer 'born from above' to 'born again')

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

Thanks for your input. Maybe those wanting to ban me for not being a "Baptist" of their modern stamp will see this and lighten-up.

 

[kyredneck]

We notice the fruit of the Spirit in Cornelius, Lydia, and others long before hearing about Christ.

There were 'two folds' prior to the cross, then afterwards He joined the two:

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks for your input. Maybe those wanting to ban me for not being a "Baptist" of their modern stamp will see this and lighten-up.

Why would they want to ban you? You seem to be a gentle soul to me.

 

[atpollard]

Why would they want to ban you? You seem to be a gentle soul to me.

He is a stubborn, gentile soul ... like a D.O.G. that will not let go of a bone once he engages in a tug of war over it.
[I made a Doctrines of Grace pun ... I am so proud of myself. ]

 

[1689Dave]

Why would they want to ban you? You seem to be a gentle soul to me.

Lots of threatening PMs you don't know about. I'm trying to get them to post openly for all to read.

 

[kyredneck]

Lots of threatening PMs you don't know about. I'm trying to get them to post openly for all to read.

Your thoughts on post #4?

 

[atpollard]

But point 4 “effectual calling” still tries to use the old logic that faith and the word are the means of salvation.

[Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

• the "gift" is "by grace you have been saved through faith" (all three together are required by the grammar of the neuter Greek "gift"), so there is a link between faith and salvation.

[Romans 10:8-17 NASB] 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

• does this not establish a link between the "word" and "faith" and salvation?

So what are "faith" and the "word" if they are not at least part of the means used by God to save?
What is the "means" of salvation apart from "faith and the word"?

(I am just looking to understand.)

 

[atpollard]

There were 'two folds' prior to the cross, then afterwards He joined the two:

I think that is a good observation about Lydia and the Centurion.

I would point out that it has ALWAYS been so. God has always been folding "gentiles" into His chosen people.

• Abram was CHOSEN ... and left with many servants (folded into the chosen people).
• Jacob was CHOSEN ... and had twelve children from two women and two foreign servants (gentiles folded into the chosen people)
• Joseph was one of the twelve tribes and became TWO half tribes through Egyptian wives (gentiles folded into the chosen people)
• Rahab was a gentile CHOSEN by God to be folded into the chosen people.
• Ruth was a gentile CHOSEN by God to be folded into the chosen people and be the grandmother to David.

God has always had two flocks and God has forever been folding them together.
Jesus just made explicit what God had been doing implicitly all along.

 

[1689Dave]

[Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

• the "gift" is "by grace you have been saved through faith" (all three together are required by the grammar of the neuter Greek "gift"), so there is a link between faith and salvation.

[Romans 10:8-17 NASB] 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

• does this not establish a link between the "word" and "faith" and salvation?

So what are "faith" and the "word" if they are not at least part of the means used by God to save?
What is the "means" of salvation apart from "faith and the word"?

(I am just looking to understand.)

The atonement saves. Even if you never hear the gospel. The Westminster agrees to this). But the rest follows under normal conditions.

 

[1689Dave]

There were 'two folds' prior to the cross, then afterwards He joined the two:

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

This is true, but the blood saves, faith is a side effect.

 

[Yeshua1]

The atonement saves. Even if you never hear the gospel. The Westminster agrees to this). But the rest follows under normal conditions.

There is no salvation apart from the Cross and resurrection of Lord Jesus, and even the Elect chosen by God to get saved must still receive Jesus thru faith to be saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

This is true, but the blood saves, faith is a side effect.

Salvation is both the Cross and the resurrection, 2 sides of one coin!

 

[1689Dave]

Salvation is both the Cross and the resurrection, 2 sides of one coin!

You are missing the point.

 

[1689Dave]

There is no salvation apart from the Cross and resurrection of Lord Jesus, and even the Elect chosen by God to get saved must still receive Jesus thru faith to be saved!

Babies, imbeciles, those far away from any preaching?

 

[Yeshua1]

You are missing the point.

Which was?

 

[Yeshua1]

Babies, imbeciles, those far away from any preaching?

They are all covered under the Grace of the Lord Jesus, as God does for them what they cannot do for themselves, as they still all deserve hell!

 

[1689Dave]

Which was?

The blood justifies. Salvation in time is the effect.

 

[1689Dave]

They are all covered under the Grace of the Lord Jesus, as God does for them what they cannot do for themselves, as they still all deserve hell!

Only the blood of Christ saves.