How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.

[Barry Johnson]

Let me ask, what do you think saves a person?

Jesus 's life .
“For if, when we were enemies( the whole world ) , we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,( the whole world ,at the Cross ) much more, being reconciled( at the cross ) , we shall be saved by his life.”
Rom 5 .10 His resurrection. ( 1 cor 15 .14
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
We are saved after we believe the Gospel .
1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 

[Barry Johnson]

I think that is a good observation about Lydia and the Centurion.

I would point out that it has ALWAYS been so. God has always been folding "gentiles" into His chosen people.

• Abram was CHOSEN ... and left with many servants (folded into the chosen people).
• Jacob was CHOSEN ... and had twelve children from two women and two foreign servants (gentiles folded into the chosen people)
• Joseph was one of the twelve tribes and became TWO half tribes through Egyptian wives (gentiles folded into the chosen people)
• Rahab was a gentile CHOSEN by God to be folded into the chosen people.
• Ruth was a gentile CHOSEN by God to be folded into the chosen people and be the grandmother to David.

God has always had two flocks and God has forever been folding them together.
Jesus just made explicit what God had been doing implicitly all along.

Were not told much about Lydia ,and yet some much weight is placed on her ' heart being opened ' were told these things happened after she was already worshipping God . And its about Lydia . We are not Lydia .

 

[church mouse guy]

Thanks for your input. Maybe those wanting to ban me for not being a "Baptist" of their modern stamp will see this and lighten-up.

In my worthless opinion, no one should ban you for your eschatology, but if they do, switch to dispensationalism and wait until they leave and then switch back, just sayin'

 

[Barry Johnson]

You are describing a "married bachelor" ... something that cannot exist because it is a self-contradiction.

The elect are the elect because they are chosen by the Father to be saved through and in the Son. So being "elect" means that the Father has given you to the Son, who gives you eternal life. That is true whether you confess on your deathbed or die at 3 days old.

You will not find ' elected to be saved ' or chosen to be saved ' in the bible . This is philosophy. Gnosctism . Where we have a secret arbitrary ' elect' few hand picked before the world began in eternity past , which the bible says nothing about . And then later they are enlightened with a hindu awakening revealing they were chosen all along. Augustine nonsense .

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Babies, imbeciles, those far away from any preaching?

Ah, now you are getting it! Jesus is the Logos ( the Word ) so the Word is in dwelt... no need to preach. I believe this as I believe in the mercy of the Trinity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He died for all.

Then all will be saved

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You will not find ' elected to be saved ' or chosen to be saved ' in the bible . This is philosophy. Gnosctism . Where we have a secret arbitrary ' elect' few hand picked before the world began in eternity past , which the bible says nothing about . And then later they are enlightened with a hindu awakening revealing they were chosen all along. Augustine nonsense .

You consider salvation by grace nonsense then?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In my worthless opinion, no one should ban you for your eschatology, but if they do, switch to dispensationalism and wait until they leave and then switch back, just sayin'

God forbid!

 

[1689Dave]

Ah, now you are getting it! Jesus is the Logos ( the Word ) so the Word is in dwelt... no need to preach. I believe this as I believe in the mercy of the Trinity.

I see a false gospel being "offered" in a "job offer fashion". It's all about salvation by works. I think any announcing (preaching) of the gospel centers on the gospel of the kingdom Jesus preached and will be understood only by the born-again. People cannot see it otherwise. This gospel now includes the details of how God saves the elect through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

Today's works "gospel" leads people away from Christ and the kingdom giving them false hopes.

 

[church mouse guy]

God forbid!

Are you a dispensationalist?

 

[Barry Johnson]

You consider salvation by grace nonsense then?

I consider the Calvinist philosophy of the ' Doctrines of grace ' to be unbiblical .
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

 

[Barry Johnson]

Then all will be saved[/QUOTE
No because limited Atonement is unbiblical and unless someone receives the Atonement they will not be glorified. The sin part is no longer the issue for unbelievers as Jesus actually dealt with that when he cried out " it is finished " . Being Glorified is the issue . The only point of access to grace is through Faith .
Rom 5.2 . 2 cor 5.19

 

[Barry Johnson]

Then all will be saved

No because limited Atonement is unbiblical and unless someone receives the Atonement they will not be glorified. The sin part is no longer the issue for unbelievers as Jesus actually dealt with that when he cried out " it is finished " . Being Glorified is the issue . The only point of access to grace is through Faith .
Rom 5.2 . 2 cor 5.19

 

[Barry Johnson]

I see a false gospel being "offered" in a "job offer fashion". It's all about salvation by works. I think any announcing (preaching) of the gospel centers on the gospel of the kingdom Jesus preached and will be understood only by the born-again. People cannot see it otherwise. This gospel now includes the details of how God saves the elect through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

Today's works "gospel" leads people away from Christ and the kingdom giving them false hopes.

What does the Kingdom look like . If you say you can see it ?
its only a works Gospel if someone says they have to work for it and maintain it or lose it .

 

[atpollard]

Chosen for what ? Chosen to do what?

Irrelevant.
The point was God called Abram as His "Chosen People" and the servants who were not of Abram's bloodline were included in the "people" that became the Nation of Israel. So "gentiles" have always been folded into God's chosen people.

Would you care to affirm or refute the point I was making rather than suggesting rabbit trails to follow?

 

[atpollard]

Were not told much about Lydia ,and yet some much weight is placed on her ' heart being opened ' were told these things happened after she was already worshiping God . And its about Lydia . We are not Lydia .

Her story is presented in the section of Acts that deals with the spread of the gospel to the gentiles. My only assumption was that she (like the Centurion) were gentiles and that they were ultimately saved and "folded into" the "one flock" of Jews and Gentiles.

If she was a Jewess, then I have assigned her to the wrong "flock" pre-folding, but I am unfamiliar with anything that suggests that she was Jewish.


PS. I think that any time God works on a heart it is a very big deal, but that is a bias from my personal experience.

 

[The Archangel]

He died for all.

That wasn’t part of this particular discussion at this point. But if Jesus did die for all, then all would be saved (because of what “propitiation” means).

The Archangel


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[The Archangel]

You will not find ' elected to be saved ' or chosen to be saved ' in the bible . This is philosophy. Gnosctism . Where we have a secret arbitrary ' elect' few hand picked before the world began in eternity past , which the bible says nothing about . And then later they are enlightened with a hindu awakening revealing they were chosen all along. Augustine nonsense .

You seem not to understand what Gnosticism actually is.

The Archangel


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[The Archangel]

I consider the Calvinist philosophy of the ' Doctrines of grace ' to be unbiblical .
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

Then... explains God’s choice (election) of Israel. By the criteria you present here God was unfair to choose Israel which meant rejecting the Edomites and the Amorites.

The Archangel


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[Barry Johnson]

Irrelevant.
The point was God called Abram as His "Chosen People" and the servants who were not of Abram's bloodline were included in the "people" that became the Nation of Israel. So "gentiles" have always been folded into God's chosen people.

Would you care to affirm or refute the point I was making rather than suggesting rabbit trails to follow?

Abram was called to do and be something. Not to be saved .