How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.

[Barry Johnson]

Then... explains God’s choice (election) of Israel. By the criteria you present here God was unfair to choose Israel which meant rejecting the Edomites and the Amorites.

The Archangel


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They were ' Chosen ' to be a people for God . They are the ' elect ' and not all the ' elect 'were saved . The only ' unfair 'complaint is in Romans 9 . which is about the temporary hardening of Israel as a nation. The complaint is why are those Gentile dogs simply believing and entering into the fold .

 

[Barry Johnson]

You seem not to understand what Gnosticism actually is.

The Archangel


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If you have studied Augustine, you would know my points . A good book on this is ' The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism' by Ken Wilson .

 

[The Archangel]

They were ' Chosen ' to be a people for God . They are the ' elect ' and not all the ' elect 'were saved . The only ' unfair 'complaint is in Romans 9 . which is about the temporary hardening of Israel as a nation. The complaint is why are those Gentile dogs simply believing and entering into the fold .

There was a corporate election of Israel, which Israel didn’t decide to initiate. It was God who made the first move. But there is also an individual election too—Paul talks about God’s conversation with Elijah after he kills the prophets of Baal. God clearly says that he has “kept for himself” individuals who are His.

The Archangel


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[The Archangel]

If you have studied Augustine, you would know my points . A good book on this is ' The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism' by Ken Wilson .

I know Augustine quite well, thank you. But the conversation isn’t about Augustine, it is about Gnosticism, which you are clearly ignorant of in applying it to Augustine and Calvinism.

The Archangel


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[atpollard]

You will not find ' elected to be saved ' or chosen to be saved ' in the bible . This is philosophy. Gnosctism . Where we have a secret arbitrary ' elect' few hand picked before the world began in eternity past , which the bible says nothing about . And then later they are enlightened with a hindu awakening revealing they were chosen all along. Augustine nonsense .

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30 NASB]

I have:

• called according to [His] purpose
• THOSE WHOM HE foreknew = predestined = called = justified = glorified
  
  • therefore "foreknew" = "glorified"
  • foreknew and predestined = aka. "elected"
  • justified and glorified = aka. "saved"
  • glorified = conformed to the image of His Son
• Q.E.D. "elected to be saved" = "predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son"

Does that make the Apostle Paul a "Hindu Gnostic"?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I know Augustine quite well, thank you. But the conversation isn’t about Augustine, it is about Gnosticism, which you are clearly ignorant of in applying it to Augustine and Calvinism.

The Archangel


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Have you read the book ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

There was a corporate election of Israel, which Israel didn’t decide to initiate. It was God who made the first move. But there is also an individual election too—Paul talks about God’s conversation with Elijah after he kills the prophets of Baal. God clearly says that he has “kept for himself” individuals who are His.

The Archangel


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He doesn't say He chose individuals before the foundation of the world . There was a reason He chose them .
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
1 kings 19.18

 

[atpollard]

Abram was called to do and be something. Not to be saved .

Sorry, that was a non sequitur to the point being discussed.
Thank you for playing and better luck next time.

 

[The Archangel]

He doesn't say He chose individuals before the foundation of the world . There was a reason He chose them .
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
1 kings 19.18

What he chose them for is not the issue; that he chose them is. We have a clear picture of God’s election here—and Paul uses that to buttress his argument for Election.

The Archangel


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[Barry Johnson]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30 NASB]

I have:

• called according to [His] purpose
• THOSE WHOM HE foreknew = predestined = called = justified = glorified
  • therefore "foreknew" = "glorified"
  • foreknew and predestined = aka. "elected"
  • justified and glorified = aka. "saved"
  • glorified = conformed to the image of His Son
• Q.E.D. "elected to be saved" = "predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son"

Does that make the Apostle Paul a "Hindu Gnostic"?

Are you conformed to Jesus image now ? Are you walking through walls like Jesus ? no because that is what we are predestined to AFTER WE BELIEVE .

 

[Barry Johnson]

What he chose them for is not the issue; that he chose them is. We have a clear picture of God’s election here—and Paul uses that to buttress his argument for Election.

The Archangel


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When you say " we have a picture of God's election here " your begging the question . Your tracking that to the calvinst doctrine. You need to establish it from within the bible .

 

[JD731]

Her story is presented in the section of Acts that deals with the spread of the gospel to the gentiles. My only assumption was that she (like the Centurion) were gentiles and that they were ultimately saved and "folded into" the "one flock" of Jews and Gentiles.

If she was a Jewess, then I have assigned her to the wrong "flock" pre-folding, but I am unfamiliar with anything that suggests that she was Jewish.


PS. I think that any time God works on a heart it is a very big deal, but that is a bias from my personal experience.

"Fold" is another word that is not used by the great apostle Paul when he is revealing the church, the body of Christ, which includes both believing Jews and believing gentiles. Think of that; 13 letters to gentiles without the use of the word fold. One would think from the standpoint of logic that if God wanted us to think of the church of Jesus Christ in that term he would have used it himself in revealing it's great and magnificent doctrines and his explaining what it is. He just doesn't.

Jesus is not presented as the Shepherd of the church, he is presented as the Shepherd of Israel in John 10. He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It was a divided people since Solomon was king over all Israel.Jesus came to Juda and according to OT prophets they were scattered across the hills without a faithful shepherd but he came to save Israel as well. Peter, James, John, and Jude all wrote letters to them. The two folds are Juda and Israel and they will be combined after the fullness of the gentiles be come in. John 10 is not about the church.

Paul does not even see gentiles as being "lost." He sees them as being unsaved.Paul only uses the word "lost" in 2 Cor 4:3 and is referring back to chapter 3 where he is dealing with the blindness of Israel. It is Israel who are lost. Gentiles were never part of God's redemptive work until this age.They are unsaved but they are not lost in the true sense of the word as God uses it.

Our bible is a "word" Bible. God reveals himself through words that he chooses. One must pay attention to his words.If you don't you will be confused.

I do not mean to hi-jack the thread but this is just some good info that will help you as you go forward.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you a dispensationalist?

No

 

[Barry Johnson]

What he chose them for is not the issue; that he chose them is. We have a clear picture of God’s election here—and Paul uses that to buttress his argument for Election.

The Archangel


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Yes God chooses . In time .

 

[The Archangel]

When you say " we have a picture of God's election here " your begging the question . Your tracking that to the calvinst doctrine. You need to establish it from within the bible .

Not at all... it is the argument that Paul makes, not me.

The Archangel


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[atpollard]

Are you conformed to Jesus image now ?

No, I am not yet glorified and that was a foolish question whose answer you already knew. However I am SANCTIFIED ...

• [Jhn 17:19 NASB] 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
• [Act 20:32 NASB] 32 "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build [you] up and to give [you] the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
• [Act 26:18 NASB] 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
• [1Co 1:2 NASB] 2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their [Lord] and ours:
• [1Co 6:11 NASB] 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
• [Heb 2:11 NASB] 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one [Father;] for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
• [Heb 10:10, 14, 29 NASB] 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ... 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. ... 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

... and I WILL BE Glorified:

• [1Jo 3:1-3 NASB] 1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and [such] we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope [fixed] on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Are you walking through walls like Jesus ?

No, I am not yet glorified and that was a foolish question whose answer you already knew.

no because that is what we are predestined to AFTER WE BELIEVE .

Where does scripture claim "we are predestined ... AFTER WE BELIEVE"?
Romans seemed to place it BEFORE WE WERE CALLED!

• "and these whom He predestined, He also called" [Romans 8:30]

 

[The Archangel]

Yes God chooses . In time .

Hardly. Talk about begging the question!

The Archangel


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[atpollard]

Gentiles were never part of God's redemptive work until this age.

Except for Ruth ... and Rahab's family ... and the servants of Jacob that bore the tribes of Israel ... and the Servants of Abram that followed him and became the tribe of Jacob and the slaves in Egypt ... and the wives of Joseph that bore two half-tribes ... and the Samaritans.

Spare me your contra-biblical nonsense.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I see a false gospel being "offered" in a "job offer fashion". It's all about salvation by works. I think any announcing (preaching) of the gospel centers on the gospel of the kingdom Jesus preached and will be understood only by the born-again. People cannot see it otherwise. This gospel now includes the details of how God saves the elect through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

Today's works "gospel" leads people away from Christ and the kingdom giving them false hopes.

OK.... Kentucky Redneck is correct in saying you sound like the Old School Baptist. There are really only two positions that a person can occupy on the matter. One is that salvation is by grace, and the other is that salvation is by works. It cannot be a combination of the two. A person may say that he believes in salvation by grace, but if he sets forth any act of man's will, such as repentance, faith, baptism, or hearing the gospel, as a condition for obtaining it, then this position must be put on the works side. Old School Baptists believe that salvation is of the Lord, that it is by His grace, and that nothing needs to be added to it. It’s just that simple. The Holy Spirit will just have to provide you understanding in Definite Atonement and your all set.

Dave, just stay outa those new religious churches and particularly away from Catholics of any stripe. The song,” Be Now My Vision“ seems to be playing in my head right now. Just let go of the nonsense and put your trust in Christ.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No, I am not yet glorified and that was a foolish question whose answer you already knew. However I am SANCTIFIED ...

• [Jhn 17:19 NASB] 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
• [Act 20:32 NASB] 32 "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build [you] up and to give [you] the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
• [Act 26:18 NASB] 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
• [1Co 1:2 NASB] 2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their [Lord] and ours:
• [1Co 6:11 NASB] 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
• [Heb 2:11 NASB] 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one [Father;] for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
• [Heb 10:10, 14, 29 NASB] 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ... 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. ... 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

... and I WILL BE Glorified:

• [1Jo 3:1-3 NASB] 1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and [such] we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope [fixed] on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

No, I am not yet glorified and that was a foolish question whose answer you already knew.


Where does scripture claim "we are predestined ... AFTER WE BELIEVE"?
Romans seemed to place it BEFORE WE WERE CALLED!

• "and these whom He predestined, He also called" [Romans 8:30]

Those He predestined for future Adoption ( To be conformed ) Eternal security, not the works mind set of the P in TULIP ,trap .
He also ' called ' . See when a calvinist sees these words its like the camberlites ( the Lords navy ) who when they read ' baptism ' think ' water ' . Its the same with ' elect , called, chosen ect . Each word has its own pre packaged doctrine . Regardless of context . You rarely hear context from a calvinst . There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)