I understand him completely. I reject irresistable grace.
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How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.
- Thread starter 1689Dave
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I understand him completely. I reject irresistable grace.
I is just ignorant and has to trust ...
... and stumble along with my blind faith in the simple word of God over your "secret knowledge" of two "gospels" (one for the elect Jews and a second, temporary, gospel for us second-class gentiles).
- [Gen 3:15 NASB] 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
- [Gen 22:18 NASB] 18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
- [Gen 26:4 NASB] 4 "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
- [Luk 3:7-9 NASB] 7 So he [began] saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 9 "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
- [Jhn 15:1-2 NASB] 1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
- [Rom 1:16 NASB] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
- [Rom 2:9-10 NASB] 9 [There will be] tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
- [Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
- [Rom 10:12 NASB] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
- [Gal 3:28 NASB] 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
- [Col 3:11 NASB] 11 [a renewal] in which there is no [distinction between] Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
atpollard, it seems to me as if you are trying to defend your adopted theology system. Why not be instructed from the word of God? You have made statements that defy logic and reason and ignores the human experience. You seem to be living in our universe and explaining a different one. There are pivot points in God's unfolding drama of redemption that you want to ignore. For instance, Israel, the people of God, were not raised up until after 2000 years of human history had already passed away. God did not even write a single word to any of those people before he established Israel as a nation of 12 tribes and then he did not write to anyone but them. You can not turn over to Exodus and say God was writing that to me. God did not write a single word to a gentile until Jesus Christ our Lord was crucified and risen and ascended to heaven and then he wrote 13 letters to us and told us what he expects from us. He called on a Jewish man to write them.He wrote them some 2000 years ago under a New Covenant, in which he has the power to make the believer a new creature, put in a new family, called the new man collectively with a new set of promises for eternity, a new destination, the new Jerusalem, in the new heaven and the new earth and meanwhile he is waiting to receive his new body without which he cannot occupy that heavenly realm and a new name. This in no way nullifies a single promise God has made to Israel who is his earth bound people and to whom he will write his laws in their hearts, every one of them and he will reign in righteousness throughout eternity.
The Reformed will likely not be a part of this because they do not believe what God says and to whom he says it. You are an example of this problem in this very thread. Sinners must believe God to be saved. That is all that God requires. No preworld election, no we four and no more. Nothing like that.
....and atpollard, do not blame me for the "mysteries of God" of 1 Cor 4, mysteries that require God to reveal them to the spiritual mind. The reason you don't know anything about them is because you do not have any interest in knowing them. I will tell you this; because of your lack of interest you are teaching many things contrary to the word of God and the promises he makes to his born again children and to his covenant nation, Israel. I am telling you these things to try to help you.The Reformed faith with it's TULIP doctrines is a false system. Rescue yourself from it.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
“For if, when we were enemies ( not: "the whole world"(?), but "when we were enemies" = THOSE LOST SINNERS THAT HAVE BEEN CONVICTED of THEIR SIN, by THE PREACHING of THE WORD and THE GOSPEL: THAT THEIR SINS ARE SO BAD, JESUS HAD TO DIE WHEN THEY WERE PLACED UPON HIM, who are those who were enemies and are now Saved that are being spoken about) ,
we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,( not: "the whole world"(?), at the Cross(?) but "when we were enemies" = those SAME SPECIFIC LOST SOULS who were enemies and are now Saved that are being spoken about)
much more, being reconciled ( at the cross ) , we (= those who were enemies and are now Saved that are being spoken about. These are the same, "we", as in, "when we were enemies" ) shall be saved by his life.”
Rom 5 .10 His resurrection.
( 1 cor 15 .14
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
We are saved after we believe the Gospel = RIGHT.
1 Corinthians 15:
1¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel** which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved *, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3¶ For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
1.)** how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 2.)** And that He was buried,
3.)** and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures;
*This is BIBLE.
** This is 'What The Gospel is", for those who don't know.
**GOD USES THE PREACHING of THE GOSPEL
*to SAVE HIS ELECT in The PROCESS of TIME.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
What if you heard your dad coing up the stairs with a belt to get you out of bed?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Then I apologize for getting in the middle.
Your statement about God saving confused me and makes your posts seem a little schizophrenic ... sometimes God is responsible and sometimes we are responsible????
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
God is Big.
Naa its not me or what I have posted its your reformed view that confused you. I said nothing remotely close to that.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[EDIT: Here are some verses so the reader can decide for themselves which mutually exclusive statement above is true.]
- [2Co 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
- [1Co 2:14 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
- [Eph 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
- [Jhn 10:24-29 NASB] 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
- [Jhn 6:41-45 NASB] 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Pure wisdom there. Really astounding. Thanks for sharing.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
How about babies?
Given the lack of context and personal commentary of those verses you have posted a non response.
Show me scripture that discusses the salvation of babies.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Post hock rationalization. Any normal person reading those verse s would not come away with the way your adding to the text. Unless they already had a system dictating how it is to be understood.
For if, when we were enemies,
we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled , we shall be saved by his life.
that word 'reconciled ' , where else have I seen that? oh yeah 2 cor 5.19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconcilation.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Really?
You strongly criticized this:
... and countered with this:
... and this:
So your opening position is:
- "faith and the word the means of salvation" = one of the worst arguments
- "word provides faith"
- "salvation already provided."
- means (of salvation) = finished work of Christ on the cross
- work in men's hearts has nothing to do with the means of salvation
- say what????
- How does one reconcile the need for "the gospel" (or any other tool) to "bring one to belief" with "the work in men's hearts has nothing to do with the means of salvation"
- If a "tool" is working to bring belief, then that tool (the gospel) would seem to have EVERYTHING to do with salvation
- One is not both saved and still an unbeliever.
- What has belief to do with it if salvation is already a finished work at the cross?
You firmly claim:
- But you seem to want to deny human effort in grace as well without offering anything to explain the giant hole left in the middle between what God doesn't do and what people don't do.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I edited the post to fix that for you and to clearly express my intent.
Once again you read into my posts things that arent there likely because of your flawed reformed view.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
How are babies and those beyond the reach of the gospel saved if the gospel is the means? Gazillions never came close to hearing the gospel.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I quoted extensively and verbatim from your posts.
Any failure to understand was far more likely due to your verbal parsimoniousness at expressing what you believe and many quick verbal thrusts at what you disagree with, forcing one to "read between the lines" and piece it together.
The grace of God
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Why would Satan be blinding people already blind ?
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