How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.

[Revmitchell]

I quoted extensively and verbatim from your posts.

Any failure to understand was far more likely due to your verbal parsimoniousness at expressing what you believe and many quick verbal thrusts at what you disagree with, forcing one to "read between the lines" and piece it together.

I forced no one to do anything. You did however confirm what I said about reading into my posts. You can claim what you want to be likely but I see it as a debate tactic not an honest attempt to understand my position. Your motivation is to win an argument not have a sincere discussion

 

[atpollard]

Why would Satan be blinding people already blind ?

Are you calling Paul a liar?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Are you calling Paul a liar?

How does that correlate?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Then just explain this to me ...

• and these whom He predestined, He also called; [Romans 8:30]

How is one "predestined" (to become conformed to the image of His Son) after CONVERSION but before being CALLED?

Do you have an order of salvation in calvinism ?

 

[atpollard]

I forced no one to do anything. You did however confirm what I said about reading into my posts. You can claim what you want to be likely but I see it as a debate tactic not an honest attempt to understand my position. Your motivation is to win an argument not have a sincere discussion

This particular argument is a debate not worth the effort of winning for me. I just don't care enough about Limited vs Unlimited atonement. When the dust settles, both sides arrive at the same place ... The Blood shed on the cross forgives every sin that needs forgiving (and nothing else does), and most people still end up "not in Heaven". So debating how God MUST handle the accounting to arrive at the same final value seems little more than a passing curiosity to me.

Of course I read into your posts since you seldom express complete theological statements of belief. You consistently offer snippets that leave the reader with no choice but to guess at what you mean.

In this topic I was engaged in nothing more and nothing less than a "snowball fight" with you. I made attempt to "win an argument" nor did I attempt to "understand your position" (although my initial misunderstanding of your first post was genuine). At the same time, you appeared to make no honest effort to explain your position. So you threw snowballs at me, and I threw snowballs back. No malice was intended, merely a little mischief to pass the time.

Frankly I have attempted to honestly interact with you elsewhere. It is always a "hit and miss" proposition, so I set my expectations low. While I may be ignorant of General Baptist beliefs, I am well educated in Wesleyan Arminianism through the Holiness Movement and the Church of God. I am not as "blinded" by Reformed presuppositions as you have assumed.

 

[atpollard]

How does that correlate?

Paul said Satan blinds people and you are questioning why Satan would need to do that.
Your question should have been directed to Paul rather than to me since Paul made the statement.

If you were not arguing that Satan does not blind "already blind people", then what was the point of your question?

 

[atpollard]

Do you have an order of salvation in calvinism ?

That is sort of a tricky question.

• I do not personally have a rigid order of salvation. There are some things that MUST logically come before other things (one cannot be "glorified at the last day" before one is "Justified by the Blood on the Cross" as an example).
• "Calvinism" is really only a part of sotieriology in most modern usage and includes anyone that accepts "T.U.L.I.P.", so the order of salvation is not directly dealt with.
• Reformed Theology and Particular Baptist Theology are the more formal branches that would deal with it and they do have an "ordo salutis" (Latin for "Order of Salvation"). However it is my understanding that this order is more of a "logical" order than a strictly chronological order. For example, in Acts people were TYPICALLY baptized and then received the Holy Spirit, which makes "logical" sense, but God sometimes gave the Holy Spirit and THEN had the people baptized. So Baptism comes before Holy Spirit in the "Ordo Salutis", but it doesn't always happen that way in real life.

If you are really curious, I can probably find an Ordo Salutis for you, or you can google it for yourself.

Romans 8:29-30 does present a specific chain of linked events. The repeated verbiage "those He XXX, he also YYY;" sets up relationship between XXX and YYY, then between YYY and ZZZ, and so on. The order is supported by both logic (foreknew comes first and glorified comes last) and other scripture (called comes before justified - Rom 10:14).

 

[Alan Gross]

How about babies?

God Can Make the Rocks Cry Out.

God has One Savior and One Means by which He Saves souls.

Opening the heart of a baby is no more of an accomplishment, than God OPENING MY DEAD, DECEIVED, UNDECERNING, WICKED HEART.

He Already Did.

John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb when he heard of Jesus' Birth.

The unsaved Do Not Leap for hearing about Jesus.

40 where she entered the home of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

42 In a loud voice, she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!…
Berean Study Bible ·

 

[1689Dave]

I quoted extensively and verbatim from your posts.

Any failure to understand was far more likely due to your verbal parsimoniousness at expressing what you believe and many quick verbal thrusts at what you disagree with, forcing one to "read between the lines" and piece it together.

You demand works are the means of salvation. But don't allow for those beyond the reach of "choosing" (a work of the flesh) the gospel.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Paul said Satan blinds people and you are questioning why Satan would need to do that.
Your question should have been directed to Paul rather than to me since Paul made the statement.

If you were not arguing that Satan does not blind "already blind people", then what was the point of your question?

Yes Paul said this because they are not born blind to begin with as calvinsim falsely teaches . This is a problem with your worldview not mine . Thats why I ask you , why is Satan blinding the blind ( according to your view ) ?
What would be the point in Satan blinding people from the Gospel if God has already reprobated them before birth and are unable to see anything anyway . Its like putting blind folds on blind people .

 

[Barry Johnson]

That is sort of a tricky question.

• I do not personally have a rigid order of salvation. There are some things that MUST logically come before other things (one cannot be "glorified at the last day" before one is "Justified by the Blood on the Cross" as an example).
• "Calvinism" is really only a part of sotieriology in most modern usage and includes anyone that accepts "T.U.L.I.P.", so the order of salvation is not directly dealt with.
• Reformed Theology and Particular Baptist Theology are the more formal branches that would deal with it and they do have an "ordo salutis" (Latin for "Order of Salvation"). However it is my understanding that this order is more of a "logical" order than a strictly chronological order. For example, in Acts people were TYPICALLY baptized and then received the Holy Spirit, which makes "logical" sense, but God sometimes gave the Holy Spirit and THEN had the people baptized. So Baptism comes before Holy Spirit in the "Ordo Salutis", but it doesn't always happen that way in real life.

If you are really curious, I can probably find an Ordo Salutis for you, or you can google it for yourself.

Romans 8:29-30 does present a specific chain of linked events. The repeated verbiage "those He XXX, he also YYY;" sets up relationship between XXX and YYY, then between YYY and ZZZ, and so on. The order is supported by both logic (foreknew comes first and glorified comes last) and other scripture (called comes before justified - Rom 10:14).

From the bible its easier .
Eph 1 13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Rom 5Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 cor 6.11

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 cor 12
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 8.23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[Alan Gross]

That is sort of a tricky question.

• I do not personally have a rigid order of salvation. There are some things that MUST logically come before other things (one cannot be "glorified at the last day" before one is "Justified by the Blood on the Cross" as an example).
• "Calvinism" is really only a part of sotieriology in most modern usage and includes anyone that accepts "T.U.L.I.P.", so the order of salvation is not directly dealt with.
• Reformed Theology and Particular Baptist Theology are the more formal branches that would deal with it and they do have an "ordo salutis" (Latin for "Order of Salvation"). However it is my understanding that this order is more of a "logical" order than a strictly chronological order. For example, in Acts people were TYPICALLY baptized and then received the Holy Spirit, which makes "logical" sense, but God sometimes gave the Holy Spirit and THEN had the people baptized. So Baptism comes before Holy Spirit in the "Ordo Salutis", but it doesn't always happen that way in real life.

If you are really curious, I can probably find an Ordo Salutis for you, or you can google it for yourself.

Romans 8:29-30 does present a specific chain of linked events. The repeated verbiage "those He XXX, he also YYY;" sets up relationship between XXX and YYY, then between YYY and ZZZ, and so on. The order is supported by both logic (foreknew comes first and glorified comes last) and other scripture (called comes before justified - Rom 10:14).

1.) "For example, in Acts people were TYPICALLY baptized and then received the Holy Spirit,"

No, there is "An Institution", "an Entity", a "Corporate Structure", a "Divinely Organized CHURCH ASSEMBLY that Jesus, Specifically "Built".

Those CHURCH ASSEMBLIES are made up of Scripturally Baptized believers, in The New Testament, and in Sound Historical Baptist-Teaching churches, like those and One of Those CHURCH ASSEMBLIES that Jesus Built,

To reference the 1)., above, Saved souls in Acts, who Had the Holy Spirit, were Water Baptised, to be obedient to The Command, "Repent and be baptized".

What is missing, on this board, is any understanding of "what a New Testament church is".

That "CHURCH ASSEMBLY" of Scripturally baptized Saved souls, in Jerusalem, was Promised, by Jesus, to RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.

That "CHURCH ASSEMBLY" of Scripturally baptized Saved souls, in Jerusalem, was Promised, by Jesus, as "An Institution", "an Entity", a "Corporate Structure", a "Divinely Organized CHURCH ASSEMBLY" that Jesus, Specifically "Built".

The CHURCH ASSEMBLY Received a ONE- TIME Inaguarization, BY JESUS BAPTIZING HER on THE DAY of PENTECOST,.....with....??...THE SHEKINAH GLORY of GOD. .

This was in Fulfillment of Daniel saying He would, "Anoint The Most Holy".

The Scripturally Organized churches, of today, HAVE THAT MOST HOLY SHEKINAH "BAPTISM", which means The Holy Spirit is The Supernatural Overseer and Vicar of Christ.

The Holy Spirit of God in New Testament churches, then and now, HAVE "ANOTHER COMFORTER".

Ever hear of it?

The "Comforter" was What Jesus Baptized that First church of His, in Jerusalem.

The Holy Spirit Never "Baptized" anything.

"Baptism" never has anything to do with Salvation, or even talking about it, except in figurative language.

No Saved person "received The Holy Spirit AFTER they were Saved.

Those passages OF JESUS BAPTISING with THE HOLY GHOST is Talking about THAT ORGANIZED INSTITUTION JESUS BUILT and CALLED IT, "My church".

She is a Divine Organization and an Organism, of LIVING CHILDREN of GOD.



....

2.) "So Baptism comes before Holy Spirit"

no, no, never. That is "What Being Born Again IS".

Re-generated to Repeat and Believe, in The BIRTH FROM ABOVE.


3.) This statement is too deep and twisted mess for me:

"So Baptism comes before Holy Spirit in the "Ordo Salutis", but it doesn't always happen that way in real life."


4.) This is really BEAUTIFUL:

"Romans 8:29-30 does present a specific chain of linked events.
The repeated verbiage "those He XXX, he also YYY;"
sets up relationship between XXX and YYY,
then between YYY and ZZZ, and so on.

The order is supported by both logic
(foreknew comes first and glorified comes last)
and other scripture (called comes before justified.)

 

[atpollard]

You demand works are the means of salvation. But don't allow for those beyond the reach of "choosing" (a work of the flesh) the gospel.

Dave, I have no idea why you are addressing this to me. Here is my testimony in a single sentence ...

An atheist gang member was getting ready to do a Timothy McVeigh when God made him an offer that he could not refuse, so he traded his old life to become a Deuteronomy 15:16-17 servant of God.

Does that sound like I "demand works are the means of salvation"?

 

[Sai]

Then all will be saved

That’s a human deduction that crosses the line.

 

[Sai]

That wasn’t part of this particular discussion at this point. But if Jesus did die for all, then all would be saved (because of what “propitiation” means).

The Archangel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s a human deduction that crosses the line.

 

[atpollard]

2.) "So Baptism comes before Holy Spirit"

no, no, never. That is "What Being Born Again IS".

Re-generated to Repeat and Believe, in The BIRTH FROM ABOVE.

Acts 2:38 ... tell it to Peter so Luke can correct the Bible.

• [Act 2:37-39 NASB] 37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
• [Act 8:14-17 NASB] 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they [began] laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
• [Tit 3:5 NASB] 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

It seems to me that we are united with Christ's death, burial and resurrection in our Baptism (the one baptism by water and the spirit that makes us born from above, not the dunking in water by Human hands) and we are sanctified by the renewing from within by the Holy Spirit. There is no point in renewing a corpse, so rebirth logically comes first.

As far as the Baptisms and Holy Spirit described in Acts, I stand by my observations and acknowledge that the theological Ordo Solutis may be different. (But you will be hard pressed to convince me that Scripture does not say what it says.)

 

[The Archangel]

That’s a human deduction that crosses the line.

The meaning of propitiation isn’t a deduction.

The Archangel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Alan Gross]

Acts 2:38 ... tell it to Peter so Luke can correct the Bible.

• [Act 2:37-39 NASB] 37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
• [Act 8:14-17 NASB] 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they [began] laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
• [Tit 3:5 NASB] 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2:38 ... tell it to Peter so Luke can correct the Bible.

• [Act 2:37-39 NASB] 37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Act 2:37-39 KJV 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord, our God, shall call.


The meaning is,

"Repent and believe The Gospel.

Then, those who do Repent and believe The Gospel, have remission of sins.

Those who have Been Given The Enablement in The New Birth to Repent and believe should be able to bring forth fruit meet for repentance, showing that THEY HAVE BEEN SAVED, they are, then, COMMANDED to be water baptized, into One of The Lord's churches.

So is everyone else in The New Testament ( and they were ) and everyone, now.


Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ ( BECAUSE OF =) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The PROMISE to receive The Gift of The Holy Ghost was The Comforter Given to The Lord's church at Jerusalem, on The Day of Pentecost.

You've heard of Supernatural, Instantaneous, Miraculous GIFTS?

That was THEM, THE GIFTS of The holy Spirit and they were Given on The Day of Pentecost AS A SIGN and MANIFESTATION that THE LORD'S KIND of CHURCHES HE BUILD WERE of DIVINE ORIGIN.

 

[Alan Gross]

Acts 2:38 ... tell it to Peter so Luke can correct the Bible.

• [Act 8:14-17 NASB] 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they [began] laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

• [Act 8:14-17 NASB] 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they [began] laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John;

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit;

16 For as yet He was fallen upon none of them; only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


The meaning of 8:16 is that these people had been water baptized, BUT WERE NOT SAVED.

The Apostles Preached The Gospel to these people, who had only been water baptized, and laid hands on them, praying God would Save their souls.

 

[Alan Gross]

Acts 2:38 ... tell it to Peter so Luke can correct the Bible.

• 
  
• [Tit 3:5 NASB] 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

The New Birth, here, by The Holy Ghost, has no mention of 'baptism'.

The New Birth is the Re-generation, Quickening, and New Birth, from Above.

There is no "Holy Spirit baptism", that anyone can see in The Book.

It is not there.