How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.

[Barry Johnson]

Hardly. Talk about begging the question!

The Archangel


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Thats what we read .

 

[The Archangel]

Thats what we read .

?????????

The Archangel


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[JD731]

Except for Ruth ... and Rahab's family ... and the servants of Jacob that bore the tribes of Israel ... and the Servants of Abram that followed him and became the tribe of Jacob and the slaves in Egypt ... and the wives of Joseph that bore two half-tribes ... and the Samaritans.

Spare me your contra-biblical nonsense.

Lineage is figured through the man. atpollard. Rahab was spared while her family were dying around her. Israel was not on an evangelistic campaign to Jericho. You really do not have any of this figured out, do you?

 

[atpollard]

Those He predestined for future Adoption ( To be conformed ) Eternal security, not the works mind set of the P in TULIP ,trap .

Now you are just talking like a crazy person ... "works mind set" of TULIP ????
The (T) stands for TOTAL INABILITY, so "works" and "TULIP" are opposite ends of the spectrum.

WE were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. This "predestination" came AFTER God "foreknew" (relational knowledge, not intellectual knowledge ... knew us, not knew about us) and BEFORE God "called", "justified" and "glorified" us.

 

[Barry Johnson]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30 NASB]

I have:

• called according to [His] purpose
• THOSE WHOM HE foreknew = predestined = called = justified = glorified
  • therefore "foreknew" = "glorified"
  • foreknew and predestined = aka. "elected"
  • justified and glorified = aka. "saved"
  • glorified = conformed to the image of His Son
• Q.E.D. "elected to be saved" = "predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son"

Does that make the Apostle Paul a "Hindu Gnostic"?

Foreknew ,( we a

Now you are just talking like a crazy person ... "works mind set" of TULIP ????
The (T) stands for TOTAL INABILITY, so "works" and "TULIP" are opposite ends of the spectrum.

WE were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. This "predestination" came AFTER God "foreknew" (relational knowledge, not intellectual knowledge ... knew us, not knew about us) and BEFORE God "called", "justified" and "glorified" us.

We are 'known' at conversion . Gal 4 .9
9But now after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Not before we exist. Before we were in Him Eph 2 tells us where we were.
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Now you are just talking like a crazy person ... "works mind set" of TULIP ????
The (T) stands for TOTAL INABILITY, so "works" and "TULIP" are opposite ends of the spectrum.

WE were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. This "predestination" came AFTER God "foreknew" (relational knowledge, not intellectual knowledge ... knew us, not knew about us) and BEFORE God "called", "justified" and "glorified" us.

I said I believe Predestination to future Guaranteed Adoption / inheritance/ Conformed After Conversion is Eternal security . Its Guarenteed for the believer who is blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: ( Eph 1)
Against the Calvinist version of Eternal Security based on the U and the P which leads to a works based ' mindset ' . Fruit inspecting and Lordship salvation.

 

[atpollard]

Lineage is figured through the man. atpollard. Rahab was spared while her family were dying around her. Israel was not on an evangelistic campaign to Jericho. You really do not have any of this figured out, do you?

I is just ignorant and has to trust ...

• [Gen 3:15 NASB] 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
• [Gen 22:18 NASB] 18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
• [Gen 26:4 NASB] 4 "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
• [Luk 3:7-9 NASB] 7 So he [began] saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 9 "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
  
• [Jhn 15:1-2 NASB] 1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
• [Rom 1:16 NASB] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
• [Rom 2:9-10 NASB] 9 [There will be] tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
• [Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
  
• [Rom 10:12 NASB] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
• [Gal 3:28 NASB] 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
• [Col 3:11 NASB] 11 [a renewal] in which there is no [distinction between] Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

... and stumble along with my blind faith in the simple word of God over your "secret knowledge" of two "gospels" (one for the elect Jews and a second, temporary, gospel for us second-class gentiles).

 

[Revmitchell]

that faith and the word are the means of salvation.

.

This is one of the worst arguments you guys make. The word provides faith in the salvation that has already been provided. That according to scripture Romans 10:17

You misuse the word "means" to make a false assertion. The means is the finished work of Christ on the cross. The work in mens hearts has nothing to do with the means of salvation.

 

[atpollard]

I said I believe Predestination to future Guaranteed Adoption / inheritance/ Conformed After Conversion is Eternal security .

Then just explain this to me ...

• and these whom He predestined, He also called; [Romans 8:30]

How is one "predestined" (to become conformed to the image of His Son) after CONVERSION but before being CALLED?

 

[atpollard]

Lineage is figured through the man.

That disqualifies Jesus from the throne of David.

 

[1689Dave]

This is one of the worst arguments you guys make. The word provides faith in the salvation that has already been provided. That according to scripture Romans 10:17

You misuse the word "means" to make a false assertion. The means is the finished work of Christ on the cross. The work in mens hearts has nothing to do with the means of salvation.

But the Pharisees heard it and killed Christ instead. Your ducks are not in order.

 

[Revmitchell]

But the Pharisees heard it and killed Christ instead. Your ducks are not in order.

Pink elephants like purple houses.

 

[1689Dave]

Pink elephants like purple houses.

Only the born-again can believe the gospel. It's beyond the grasp of everyone else.

 

[The Archangel]

Rahab was spared while her family were dying around her.

Wrong.

[15] On the seventh day they rose early, at the dawn of day, and marched around the city in the same manner seven times. It was only on that day that they marched around the city seven times. [16] And at the seventh time, when the priests had blown the trumpets, Joshua said to the people, “Shout, for the LORD has given you the city. [17] And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent. [18] But you, keep yourselves from the things devoted to destruction, lest when you have devoted them you take any of the devoted things and make the camp of Israel a thing for destruction and bring trouble upon it. [19] But all silver and gold, and every vessel of bronze and iron, are holy to the LORD; they shall go into the treasury of the LORD.” [20] So the people shouted, and the trumpets were blown. As soon as the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they captured the city. [21] Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.

[22] But to the two men who had spied out the land, Joshua said, “Go into the prostitute’s house and bring out from there the woman and all who belong to her, as you swore to her.” [23] So the young men who had been spies went in and brought out Rahab and her father and mother and brothers and all who belonged to her. And they brought all her relatives and put them outside the camp of Israel. [24] And they burned the city with fire, and everything in it. Only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD. [25] But Rahab the prostitute and her father’s household and all who belonged to her, Joshua saved alive. And she has lived in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

[26] Joshua laid an oath on them at that time, saying, “Cursed before the LORD be the man who rises up and rebuilds this city, Jericho.

“At the cost of his firstborn shall he
lay its foundation,
and at the cost of his youngest son
shall he set up its gates.” (Joshua 6:15–26 ESV, emphases mine)​

Clearly, Rahab's family was saved, too.

The Archangel

 

[atpollard]

Comment deleted and apology offered to 1689Dave for the misunderstanding.

Revmitchell is a full blown (anti-TULIP) General Baptist.

 

[1689Dave]

You two are determined to go at it, but you are not in disagreement.
You both advocate MONERGISM and salvation being 100% of God and 0% of man.

You are misunderstanding each other.

The problem is You and the Pharisees are cut from the same cloth. If you think you choose Christ and save yourself you are still lost as they ever were. If God saves you, you cannot help but believe and rejoice, bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[atpollard]

How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.

The 5 points lined up originally since Calvin taught universal atonement. This made faith and the word the means of salvation.

But Dort. Removed universal atonement and made Christ’s shed blood, limited to the elect, the means of salvation. This means the blood saves from eternity, even infants, and those elect beyond the reach of the gospel.

Not that it matters a great deal, but I do not think that this is factually accurate.
My understanding is that there were no "5 points" in Jon Calvin's writings and by 5 point Calvinism standards Jon Calvin was only a 4-pointer.
The introduction of the concept of "5 points" comes from the Remonstrances (Classic Arminianism) written shortly after the death of Jacob Arminius. Only then did the Synod of Dort meet to create an official response to the Remonstrances and create the 5 points of "Calvinism".
The TULIP acronym did not come along until the 1800's (I think).

Your arguments are really directed more at General Baptist "universal atonement" vs Particular Baptist "limited atonement" and the consequences on sotieriology with respect to the absolute NEED to hear the Gospel in order to be saved. So the topic itself is still perfectly valid even if the opening may generate some confusion.

[EDIT: delete comment]

 

[1689Dave]

Not that it matters a great deal, but I do not think that this is factually accurate.
My understanding is that there were no "5 points" in Jon Calvin's writings and by 5 point Calvinism standards Jon Calvin was only a 4-pointer.
The introduction of the concept of "5 points" comes from the Remonstrances (Classic Arminianism) written shortly after the death of Jacob Arminius. Only then did the Synod of Dort meet to create an official response to the Remonstrances and create the 5 points of "Calvinism".
The TULIP acronym did not come along until the 1800's (I think).

Your arguments are really directed more at General Baptist "universal atonement" vs Particular Baptist "limited atonement" and the consequences on sotieriology with respect to the absolute NEED to hear the Gospel in order to be saved. So the topic itself is still perfectly valid even if the opening may generate some confusion.

[As an aside, that is what happened with you and Revmitchell, he latched onto your universal atonement comment and strongly disagreed with it. Now you are arguing with him over it. Well guess what, YOU DON"T ACCEPT UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT EITHER!]

As my daughter would say ... "Stubborn, much?"

Thanks for sharing your wisdom in this matter.

 

[Alan Gross]

He died for all.

I do not know of any evidence Jesus Died, "for all" (in the sense of, "all human beings"), and I do not believe any evidence exists.

Part 1 of The Cause of God and Truth, by John Gill, expounds of 50, or more, Scriptures with have been misconstrued and DO NOT TEACH Universal Atonement, in ANY FASHION.

Several of them may be misinterpretations of, "all", as if it automatically means, "every person", rather than, "all kinds", i.e., poor, rich, Jew, Gentile.

That 50, or so, list amounts to people who know the Bible DOES NOT TEACH JESUS DIED for "EVERYONE" having "more Scriptures than Universalists do" that could be misunderstood and made into error.

 

[Revmitchell]

Only the born-again can believe the gospel. It's beyond the grasp of everyone else.

Uh no, the gospel is the tool used to bring one to belief. What you said us absurd.