Featured Irresistible Grace

Thank you ivdavid for this opportunity to deal with such wonderful truths.

In Rom 11? - yes
Gentiles will no longer believe? - That is what the text indicates, yes
Where are you reading this from exactly? Rom 11:21, which says - For if God spared not the natural branches (Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee (the wild gentile tree). 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell (Israel see V's 11-12), severity; but toward thee (gentiles), goodness, if thou (gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (gentiles) also shalt be cut off.
It rather says after all the gentile nations believe, then Israel shall be saved - what am i missing in what you see? It does not say anything like that.

Romans 7:1 - Paul begins a narrative to those who know the law. His comments to those people suggests an intimacy with the law.This is not gentiles. In Rom 11:13 he begins to speak to the gentiles and explains why God included them and warns them that they will be cut off for the same sin of Israel, unbelief. One must allow the pronouns to identify the antecedents. He has a purpose in this age that he intended to accomplish with a repentant Israel that he describes in Rom 8, Because of their unbelief he will not accomplish it with the small remnant of Israel who did believe and so he included the gentiles. It has been two thousand years and millions have believed but the other writers of the NT epistles predicts a great apostasy from the faith at the end of the age before our Lord returns to the earth.

This is a prophecy of Jesus Christ to the Jews; Keep in mind that supper comes at the end of the day.

Lk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

The church of Jesus Christ is pictured in scripture as a family and is entered in by a birth. Individuals make up the whole family. Since gentiles will be those who are entering in, when they fail to be born any longer, then the family is complete.It is logical and reasonable to follow these revelations.

It is at this time that God will begin to deal with Israel again as a nation and as a people, but not in the same way and not for the same purpose.We are going to begin with a mystery of God in V 26 and it truly is a mystery because I have read comments from many people on this chapter and it is obvious they have no light on it.

To keep this post from being too long I will answer your other objections in subsequent posts.

 

/////
That He chooses them through two things ( sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth ) means to me that those are the two things that are involved in the process of Him choosing.
So, He did not choose them because of those things, but through them.///// is this unconditional election ?

 

Amen.
God has not appointed believers to wrath, but to obtain the gift of eternal life...
Which includes salvation from that wrath.

Therefore, they were clearly chosen to salvation...
Because they were appointed to obtain salvation.

Do you see it?

I agree.
He's talking to those that had already believed, and telling them why they have believed.

It is God's choosing because we as men are firmly in love with our sin ( Romans 1:18-32 ) and firmly committed to rejecting His words apart from the miracle of the new birth.

You may call it "unconditional election" if you like, but to me, any other way makes God's choosing of sinners to salvation reliant upon what we as men contribute, and not entirely on what God alone does.
To me this violates Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 and most especially Ephesians 2:9 if anything that we have is used to "help" the Lord to decide to save us.
Instead, I clearly see that we as rebellious sinners come to God morally and spiritually bankrupt, with nothing in our hands except His deciding to have mercy on us ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-16 ), Barry.

Again, salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ and His finished work on the cross for His sheep alone.
No works required, nothing for us to contribute except that which we are freely given by Him.


He gets all the glory, and it's well-deserved.

 

[/QUOTE]JD731 said: ↑
and then .Jesus will come out of Zion, which is in Jerusalem, and save Israel.[/QUOTE]

1) how and from what will Jesus save Israel?

You must remember that I did not write anything in the scriptures. I read it and I am faced with whether I will believe it. I suppose every one does. As for me, I believe the words I read and I believe them in the context. The scriptures may not always be logical (like the resurrection) but they are always reasonable.

The words I quoted above, that Jesus will come out of Zion, and deliver Israel after the fullness of gentiles be come in, is what is written. I accurately quoted the text. The burden of the writer is not to give a detailed report here but just to say that all Israel will be saved and here is how they will be saved. He sent preachers in this age to present his salvation, but then he will appear himself out of Zion. Two things I know for sure that is true on 9/6/2020 and that is the fullness of the gentiles has not yet come in and Jesus Christ is not in Zion today. So, this is a future prophecy.

So, the text will answer your question if you will let it.

25 For I would not, brethren (gentile brethren), that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The word until suggests a finality of something.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The emphasis is on All Israel as apposed to a remnant of Israel like he had been dealing with before.

27 For this is my covenant unto them (Israel - still speaking to gentiles), when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel presently) are enemies for your (gentiles) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's (the fathers of Israel) sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (The promises made to the fathers are bound to come to pass)

30 For as ye i(gentiles) n times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:

31 Even so have these (Israel) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may (future) obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them (Israel) all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

You are not forced to believe a single word of this and from what you have said, you don't. However, I think your failure is because you are ignorant (I do not say that word as an insult) of the mysteries of God. The Reformed faith is an intellectual approach to the scriptures. Jesus said you must come as a babe. He has hidden these things from the wise and the prudent and hath revealed them to babes.

So, the answer to your question is that Jesus, the deliverer will save them from the great heat of the tribulation that is burning them up and he also will save them from their national and personal sins and all Israel that breaths air will be saved. They will have his Spirit just like the prophets says but they will not be in the church. The church was completed before the salvation of Israel.

Will they be saved from penalty of sin through faith in Jesus Christ?
Yes, No one is saved from sin except through faith in Jesus Christ. It is he that delivers them when they call on him. There are witnesses and preachers to his coming. Rev 7 & 11.

 

The tribulation of Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble will prepare Israel for faith in Messiah, Jesus Christ. It will be so intense that 1) all those who are rebels in heart will be killed, and 2) It will be so intense that if the Messiah they have been waiting for does not come then all will perish. The age of grace ended with the fullness of the church. This is a time of the wrath of God and judgment. Very little grace here now. Many of the Psalms gives us the prophecy of Israel calling out for deliverance in those days.

Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Jacob = natural
Israel = Spiritual

Soul, body, Spirit = salvation of a nation by salvation of all individuals. Salvation is God with us.

 

'God gets the glory ' slogan is the calvinist banner . But what is strange is that calvinists make the whole bible about them .The bible is about Jesus . Jesus gets the Glory , he's the ' Elect ' before the foundation of the world . The preexisting one ,not Calvinists with him .
I would encourage you to research the background to what you believe . Just like
some other ' groups' who have a distinct world view that is unique to itself ,so to does reformed teachings. Which you are quoting verbatim, every time you post
. You haven't put a foot out of step with the 5 points yet . You have quoted the same exact verses ,the same responses word for word . The same limited context. This is what you call ' giving up your sense making to a sysyem ' .
Read Calvin , better yet read Augustine. Trace back to why your quoting the same canned responses . I'm speaking from experience having dipped my toe in the reformed Armin / calvin camp for a season . I praise God i was pulled out the ' reformed , Lordship salvation trap ' .Sadly I see most Christians don't make it past one or the other ditches ' Calvinsm on the one side , Arminism on the other . They only see it must be one or the other .

 

They thought they were going through the Tribulation and had missed Jesus return was my point .

 

God has not appointed believers to wrath, but to obtain the gift of eternal life...//// no they already had believed and recieved eternal life. They feared they were suffering

The only problem

The issue is your believing a lie . The better news is there is no such thing as any Gnostic election , Augustine Got it wrong and then you let go of all the other ridiculous points of Calvinism and Trust the Authority of the scriptures. The Joy unspeakable is Salvation by Grace through faith available to all . The simplicity in Christ. Eternal security thats not based on the P but on the sealing of the Holy Spirit and the promises of scripture.

 

Mankind contributing something to their salvation is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures, Barry.
It only looks that way to many.

The Bible is about God redeeming a people from their sins and many other acts of His mercy and kindness.

Of course it's about the objects of His grace...
But it's also about His grace to sinners through His precious Son.

Amen.

He is the firstborn from the dead, and the first of many brethren.
Just as He is elect and foreknown, we are elect and foreknown.

A better Saviour a man ( or woman ) could never be had.

I've done the research, Barry.

I call that believing and understanding His word that teaches me that He gets all the glory, and that election abases the objects of His grace and causes them to see where their salvation really comes from...

The Lord.

That's where I think you've assumed too much, Barry.

I was raised in "Traditionalism" ( whatever that is ), for over 25 years before seeing election for myself.
Before that I had never heard or read anything even remotely like what "Calvinism" teaches;
and believe me when I say that I'm not going back to it...

I'm going the other direction.

Away from anything that is man-centered and tends to rob Him of the glory and praise that He so rightfully deserves.
That is what I've started seeing since I really picked up my Bible 17 years ago and began to read it for myself, instead of neglecting it for the 25 before that.

 

But that isn't what the text says Barry.
It says that they were appointed to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ.

That's why they believed and had already received eternal life:

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 ).

Notice carefully that it does not say " he that believes on me will have eternal life."
It clearly says "has" eternal life.
"Is passed" from death unto life.
Not "will be" passed from death unto life.

Present tense.

Those that believe already have eternal life, Barry.
Those that believe are already passed from death unto life ( born again )...

That's why they have believed.

Thanks Barry.

I know you were directing that at Sai, but I'll believe the "lie" that salvation is "of" the Lord.
It gives Him all the glory.

But Paul did not get it wrong, and that is who the Lord used to write the Scriptures that tell me of His choosing people to salvation before the foundation of the world.

I am trusting the authority of the Scriptures...
But thanks for your encouragement once again.

The joy unspeakable is the gift of eternal life being given to whomsoever He has mercy and compassion on...

Not on whoever has the "strength" or "wisdom" to "take Him up on His offer of grace".

The simplicity is found in this hymn, which is very dear to me:

Amazing Grace.

That is the simplicity of Christ...
God did it all, and a wretch like me did nothing to deserve any of it.

 

It's based on a Saviour who loved me, even when I was dead in trespasses and sins.
He foreknew me and set His love upon me from the womb and long before that, Barry.

The fact that I persevere in my faith is the evidence of being made His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.

Barry,
From here on out I will put you on "ignore", and do my level best not to reply to your posts.
I may have intended to do that before, but I decided to see if there was anything that persuading you with the Scriptures might do to remedy that.
Now I can see that nothing that I can do ( in and of myself ) seems to be getting through to you.
I will leave that up to Him and His grace from now on.

But one thing I'd like to leave with you while you consider my words and study the Scriptures...

I'm very grateful that He has shown me both His love and His wisdom;
That my belief on His Son for the forgiveness of my sins was the result of His work in me...
Not His work in me being the result of my belief on His Son.



As always good sir,

I wish you well and my sincere desire is that you see what I have come to see...
His amazing grace and how special it really is.

 

Lol, it just occurred to me that the elect cannot commit the unpardonable sin occording to the Reformed. Yet, here are the elect doing it.

Don’t you claim to be elect?

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

 

' mankind contributing to salvation is not found in the bible ' yes I agree. Who is saying this?? This is a straw man created by calvinists. They change the definitions themselves into this concept and then argue against it . This is the most bizarre thing in Calvinism . They create the problem that isn't even in the bible. Its a philosophical dilemma that the system itself creates . The New student to Calvinsim is fed this 'dilemma 'as if its biblical tension and the rest is inserted into the mind as answers to the 'problem ' . There is no tension between man's free will and God's sovereignty.

 

It says that they were appointed to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ. ///// where ?

 

//// But Paul did not get it wrong, and that is who the Lord used to write the Scriptures that tell me of His choosing people to salvation before the foundation of the world///// No verse says this . The Bible says clearly that he has not chosen people to be saved . The Bible says that God only chooses those in Christ . God clearly says that God has not elected anyone arbitrarily. God is not arbitrary. Brother I encourage you to read the bible afresh. lay aside your convictions and bias . We all have presups that we bring to the text . Unfortunately we are influenced by those around us . God is saving only on the basis of faith . thats only radical to those who have been taught a different soteriology . One on which God is not pleased to save those that believe but cause belief in those he saves. Which is the most outlandish concept ever to pass any Mature Christian committee in the history of the church . But here we are still in 2020 still taking Augustines philosophy seriously. I know, because I too was sucked into it for a time . It appeals to the intellect and the person who just wants answers no matter the cost.