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Featured A Biblical Defense of Synergism #3

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Steven Yeadon, Sep 13, 2020.

  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for clarifying.

    Total inability to do righteous acts is not found in scripture. God isn't breaking me unless I'm determined to be evil and obstinate. In my case I spent three years in torment losing all faith in God and Jesus as a moderate Baptist. This eventually caused me to choose faith in the biblical Jesus and set out on a new and true journey as a pilgrim.
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not a child of the Father until saved in Christ!
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus called the {Pharisees and scribes who saw and heard Him and still did not believe children of Satan!
     
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  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    yes, as that was a wandering son who was still in a saving relationship with his father
     
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  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Job is afflicted because God points him out to Satan and intentionally moves Satan to make claims that deny God's Sovereignty. God says, go ahead. Satan attempts. God proves Satan wrong. God is Sovereign.
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing original. Sheep are chosen children of God. The sons are chosen children of God. Both receive their inheritance. Both use it differently. Both remain sons despite their actions.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    No one has ever said there is no ability to obey God's commands according to the law.
    What the Bible declares is that you and I have no ability to choose our adoption. God chooses who his children are and chooses the moment they are adopted.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    As John stated to us, made children by the will of God!
     
  9. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I'm just going to have to disagree. I think you are reading into the text more than the context presented, which I view as dangerous.

    Yes, God was the LORD on His throne in Job's circumstances. I just differ with you, due to scripture, on whether God wants all saved and has given mankind moral ability. I see Job as a fantastic example of Job's God-given ability to choose righteousness even amidst impossible suffering. Job's righteousness is such, with God knowing all along, that Job's actions destroy Satan's logic that God is only loved because He gives blessings to people like Job.

    Thank you for clarifying. OK, having said that, I guess the only big problem we have is not moral ability, as you say, but whether God extends mercy to all through Jesus Christ in an unlimited atonement.

    I must say you have done well to make a mockery of 4 point Calvinism, which would have been decimated by this point in time.

    The problem I see is that you have verses, strong ones, to say God only elects some to salvation, and I have verses that say God wants all saved. I don't think we will bridge that gulf, but thank you for a solid debate. You honed my responses.
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Steve, is the son actually a son, or is he a stranger?
    If he is a son, did the son choose his father or did the Father choose the son? With respect, it is you who is reading what is not there into the prodigal son story.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Steve, God does not say, "I want all humanity to be saved." If God said that then God would have to admit that He cannot get what He wants. God would therefore be less than all-powerful.
     
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  12. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I disagree strongly, based on the context of Luke 15, but I'll leave it there.
     
  13. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    My OP in thread #1 has scriptures that say otherwise. They imply strongly God doesn't always get what He wants. How is God so often displeased in scripture by human actions? You really believe the sole reason is because He knows the eternal destiny of objects of wrath. That isnt a good explanation of the text.
     
  14. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Here are the verses I cited for God wants the salvation of all.

    Romans 11:32 NASB
    32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

    2 Peter 3:9 NASB
    9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB
    3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth.

    Matthew 23:37 NASB
    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

    Ezekiel 18:23 NASB
    Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

    Ezekiel 18:32 NASB
    "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

    Ezekiel 33:11 NASB
    "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

    Lamentations 3:33 NASB
    For He does not afflict willingly
    Or grieve the sons of men.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Steve, I don't know what those verses are so I cannot speak to them.
    God always accomplishes everything He wills. There is no passage that tells us God fails to accomplish what He wills.
    God is holy. Unholy actions displease God. When humans break God's law, they justly deserve God's judgment. All humans justly deserve God's wrath. Yet, God, chooses to redeem some through the propitiation of Christ Jesus for their sins. Jesus paid the price for those whom the Father has given him.
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Steve, you have had these verses and accompanying passages explained to you, in their context. None of these verses make your point or support your assertions.
     
  17. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I must be blunt, the so called explanations I was given mutilate the text. I can explain each of these in context and show that God is not as the Calvinists or Monergists explain. I could say that all of the Monergist texts can be explained with a credible theory from Synergists.

    I don't think we are going to change each other's mind in any way, we got to the quote scripture at each other point, which is the end of a scriptural debate.
     
  18. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Let's start here as common ground of agreement.

    I thought you already had the answer in just the above quote. If-Then moral choices have been always given to Israel to obey the Law of Moses and to later believe in the Gospel of Christ - why then are all under the curse of the law and why is Israel still in unbelief even today, if it was so possible?

    Just taking the law, there's enough and more exhortations by God to obey it, right? Why the continuous requirement to keep it when God Himself reveals it cannot be kept?

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
    Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    The purposes of God commanding for His law to be kept was not for its keeping per se - He knew it was impossible for man to keep. But in so commanding, man will see his continuous failures and hence its impossibility, will see his own rebellion and enmity against God, will trace the reasons for it and realize that there is an exceedingly deceptive nature of rebellion(sin) in him which he was not aware of until he was exhorted to obey the command. And having reached this point, he would then stop persisting in such dead works and instead put his trust wholly on only the One who can ever work these out in him. The impossibility of the law for us to keep is what shows us our initial hatred towards God and then drives us to Christ with our awareness of our total inability in the flesh.

    If you accept the above which can be proven from Scriptures, then take it further and compare how the total inability of the flesh (due to sin in it) fares in obeying the commands of God in the law vs the commands of God in the Gospel, given the same initial rebellion and hatred towards God.

    It assumes moral capacity*. God has endowed us with moral cognizance. Sin has corrupted it through its deceitfulness and rendered that capacity unable to be exercised as designed - much like us all being endowed with the capacity to walk or see but an accident or a genetic mutation rendering us unable to exercise that originally designed capacity. The bible does not assume moral ability to obey God in the flesh - it confirms the contrary in fact in Rom 8:7-8. One can ever obey God only in the Spirit.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The law served its purpose for Paul. as he was made aware that he coveted, and that his own righteousness meant nothing to Holy God !
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    No they don't. Let me return the bluntness. You quote only a verse, a couple sentences, while ignoring the context. Such hermeneutics is used by people who are antagonistic to the gospel and want a prooftext for their pet belief. I do not think you wish to follow their methods, but instead you wish to seek God. Therefore, I encourage you to read the whole passage around each verse so you can perceive context and thus see your error. I trust God will help you.
     
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