the "T" of the TULIP

[Dave G]

Babies are born innocent. and are not held response -able until they reach an age of understanding.

" The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:3 ).

Sin from the moment of birth.
There is no "age of accountability".

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God ( Romans 3:23 ).
There is none righteous, no not one ( Romans 3:10 ).

There is not a just man on the earth that does good and sins not....not a single one ( Ecclesiastes 7:20 ).

 

[atpollard]

Believe it is true because someone believes it is true? Or stick to scripture?

It is not an "either/or". The Sadducee might have gone to the TORAH to prove that there is no Resurrection of the dead, but they would have had a very hard time convincing Lazarus from scripture that he was not really dead for those 4 days.

Did we respond with our old cold heart, or were we called and drawn through the gospel? Soils #2 and #3 (Matthew 13) "gladly accepted the gospel invitation, without being enabled by irresistible grace.
I have shown once again, the "T" of the TULIP, total spiritual inability, is unbiblical and false. Some people, some of the time seek God, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9-30-33, Luke 13:24, Luke 24:5, and John 6:26.

If "total inability" meant "nobody ever seeks God", then your argument would have proven "total inability" to be false. Unfortunately, 'Calvinists' do not believe or teach that "total inability" means nobody ever seeks God. Here is an explanation of what we do believe that it means and why.

When a 'Calvinist' (Reformed/Particular Baptist/Doctrine of Grace) advocate uses the term "Total Depravity", we do not mean that people are as evil as they can possibly be (degree of depravity). Rather we mean that every part of a human being has been corrupted by sin in some way (extent of depravity).

The result of "Total Depravity" (as defined above) is "Total Inability", defined as follows: Man is not capable of coming to God in His own strength and wisdom. That is all it means, and we draw our view from verses like these ...

• 2 Corinthians 4:4 "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
• 1 Corinthians 2:14 "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
• John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

We believe this human inability is the reason why every person must be born a second time:

• John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
• John 3:5-7 "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’"

 

[Dave G]

Did we respond with our old cold heart, or were we called and drawn through the gospel?

Yes, we were...
and amen.

 

[Dave G]

I don't believe man can love anyone with out the choice to do so

Neither do I, MB.

 

[Dave G]

I did not see any barriers preventing me from being saved I was convinced at this moment of Christ because I willingly accepted the truth. I then surrendered.
I believe God has determined to save all who believe in Him and everyman has this ability.
Our God is pure Love. Nothing or anyone has ever loved me so completely as my Lord. I cannot see my self ever being with out Him. He has always been there for me even before I was saved.

Amen yet again, good sir.

It's called "election" in the Bible.
See Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
He was there for all of His people, from the moment that He wrote our names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

 

[George Antonios]

the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9) and from within his heart flows all sorts of evil (Mark 7:21-23). He is a slave of sin (Romans 6:20), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2:15), and cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14).

True (the last verse applies to the old nature even in believers)

The unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness

False, and unsurprisingly, the only statement without a verse reference.

 

[George Antonios]

@Van is now invited to explain how all of these verses really mean something else since the Biblical teaching on the depravity of man is false.

Strawman and loaded.

 

[atpollard]

and unsurprisingly, the only statement without a verse reference.

... except for all of the verses that followed which you admit are "True".

False,

We shall see.

Feel free to explain how the unbeliever:

• freely chooses God with a heart that is wicked and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9)
  
• freely chooses God with all sorts of evil that flows from his heart (Mark 7:21-23)
• freely chooses God as a slave of sin (Romans 6:20)
• freely chooses God while dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1)
• freely chooses God while being at nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3)
• freely chooses God while at enmity with God (Ephesians 2:15)
• freely chooses God even though he cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)

On the other hand, if all of those things are true about the unbeliever, then it seems likely that "The unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness" ... because ... "the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9) and from within his heart flows all sorts of evil (Mark 7:21-23). He is a slave of sin (Romans 6:20), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2:15), and cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)."

 

[atpollard]

Strawman and loaded.

Guilty as charged ...
... but at least I did not derail the other thread where Van pontificated off-topic, proclaiming by fiat that "the Calvinist teaching on the depravity of man is false." and redefining "but Esau I hated" to really mean "God loves everyone, including Esau".

 

[George Antonios]

The unbeliever will never freely choose God

it seems likely that "The unbeliever will never freely choose God

I rest my case.

 

[George Antonios]

Guilty as charged ...

If there were an "honest" award, I'd click it, but there isn't, so I just gave the "like".

 

[Dave G]

The unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness

False, and unsurprisingly, the only statement without a verse reference.

" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. " ( John 3:19-20 ).

This tells me that our will as sinful men is dead-set against God...
Not "neutral", and definitely not free to choose as is popularly taught.

Everyone that does evil ( sins, that's all of us ) hates the light ( who is the Light? See John 8:12 )...
Neither comes to the Light, lest our works should be corrected by Him.

For proof that we as men start out hating the Lord Jesus, see:

Matthew 10:22.
Matthew 24:9.
John 7:7.
John 15:18-21.

We as men are not only unwilling to freely choose Christ, we are actually leaning in quite the opposite direction;
We hate God and His Son.
That means that we are prejudiced against Him and His commands to repent.

Therefore, no one freely chooses to come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit convicts one of their sins via the word of God and the power of His calling.
Otherwise, we remain dead in our trespasses and sins, and couldn't care less about seeking God.

Good evening to you, sir.

 

[Van]

Shall we look at yet another passage cited as providing support for total spiritual inability? Why not!!

Mark 7:21-23​

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornication, thefts, murders, adulteries,
deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander,pride and foolishness.
“All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”​

Here we find support for the corruption and depravity of mankind, but no mention is made of total spiritual inability. And so it goes, Calvinism shows "A" is true, then claims "B" has been supported, or as in this case "T."

 

[Van]

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ).

Neither of these verses say or suggest all of the lost have total spiritual inability. So yet again, verses providing absolutely no support are cited, the old prove "A" and claim "B" has been proved.

 

[Van]

SNIP

If "total inability" meant "nobody ever seeks God", then your argument would have proven "total inability" to be false. Unfortunately, 'Calvinists' do not believe or teach that "total inability" means nobody ever seeks God. Here is an explanation of what we do believe that it means and why. SNIP

The result of "Total Depravity" (as defined above) is "Total Inability", defined as follows: Man is not capable of coming to God in His own strength and wisdom. That is all it means, and we draw our view from verses like these ...
kingdom of God. SNIP​

Here we have the old redefine the "T" so it means we are unable to save ourselves. Hogwash

Why does one Calvinist after another cite Romans 3:11, rather than Romans 9:16?

Here is the actual doctrine, as published, quoting L Boettner.

“This doctrine of total inability which declares that men are dead in sin does not mean that all men are equally bad, nor that any man is as bad as he could be, nor that anyone is entirely destitute of virtue, nor that human nature is equal in itself, nor that man’s spirit in inactive, and much less does it mean that the body is dead. What is does mean is that since the fall, man rests under the curse of sin, that he is actuated by wrong principles, and that he is wholly unable to love God, or to do anything meriting salvation. His corruption is extensive, but not necessarily intensive. It is in this sense that man, since the fall, is utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, wholly inclined to all evil. He possesses a fixed bias of the will against God, and instinctively and willingly and turns to evil. He is an alien by birth, and a sinner by choice. The inability under which he labors is not an inability to exercise volition, but an inability to be willing to exercise holy volitions. And it is this phase of it which led Luther to declare that ‘free will’ is an empty term, whose reality is lost; and a lost liberty, according to my grammar, is no liberty at all.”


And of course, the actual total spiritual inability Calvinist doctrine is as bogus as a three dollar bill, as several verses including Matthew 23:13 show people engaged in "holy volitions."








​

 

[Dave G]

Here we find support for the corruption and depravity of mankind, but no mention is made of total spiritual inability.

Spiritual inability is developed from a large number of Scriptures that deal with man's heart and how corrupt it is.
No mention is made of spiritual inability there, but as we can clearly see, man's heart is corrupt...
Correct?

Furthermore,
Just because this passage doesn't develop it, does not mean that others do not.
To me, your point has not been made, Van.

Yes, I agree that Mark 7:21-23 does not deal with inability...

It deals with the fact that man's heart is desperately wicked ( Jeremiah 17:9 ), which is the foundation of why we are "unable" as sinful men to come to Him...
and even more, unwilling to come to God.

And so it goes, Calvinism shows "A" is true, then claims "B" has been supported, or as in this case "T."

We not talking about John Calvin, nor his "take" on the Scriptures, Van.
We're addressing the words on the page.

To me,
Continuing to bring up John Calvin only seeks to deflect from that, does it not?

 

[Dave G]

Neither of these verses say or suggest all of the lost have total spiritual inability.

Again, I disagree.

Not only do they point-blank tell us ( the act of stating is way past mere "suggestion" ) that "no man CAN except"...
They list the only way that a man can.
Problem and solution are both identified in only two verses.

The only way that a man can come to Christ is if he is drawn, and if he is given to Christ by the Father.
In addition, all who are drawn will be raised up, and all that are given to Christ shall come to Him ( John 6:37 ) with not a single one being lost ( John 6:39 ).
That's the "T", the "U" and the "I" all in one section of reading.

All one has to do is believe the words on the page, Van.
One does not even need to pick up Calvin's "Institutes" to see it ( which I never did )...
Just pick up the Bible and read it for yourself.


Speaking of which...
Reading further on in God's precious book, I clearly see this willingly rebellious "inability"...

( Side note:
For what is it if a man is dead set against God, but a "road block" or inability to come to God and to be reconciled to Him? )

Based on Romans 1:26-32 ( specifically verses 30-32 ) I see this:

" And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Who is this describing above, if not all men?
Answer:
This describes all of us outside of Christ, for that is what is also being described here:

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" ( Romans 1:18-20 ).


This is what it is to be the "natural man" ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ) and walking in the vanity of our minds ( Ephesians 4:17-19 )...
Having our understanding darkened and giving ourselves over to sin.


Yet again, Scriptures provide the support, and you deny what they say.
Look at it again, Van.
All the answers to any subject regarding our sin problem and the resolution for it are in there.

 

[Dave G]

Why does one Calvinist after another cite Romans 3:11, rather than Romans 9:16?

Well, without even having to read what John Calvin wrote ( which I have no use for, since I read and trust God's words alone ),
I clearly see that according to Romans 9:16, salvation is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs ( performs works ), but of Him that shows mercy.
See Titus 3:5-7.

This is the complete opposite of man's will determining his or her destiny by an act of our will..

However, I personally cite to Romans 3:11 as well as Psalms 10 and Psalms 14 because of what they say...
No man seeks God.

Therefore, I understand that if no man seeks God ( our "default condition" ), then there's only one reason that we do:
Psalms 65:4.
The "causing" here is the new birth...


"Ye must be born again."

 

[George Antonios]

The Calvinist God has taken away the ability of men to believe then condemns them for not believing.
That is not God. That is Satan.

 

[George Antonios]

Spiritual inability is developed from a large number of Scriptures that deal with man's heart and how corrupt it is.
No mention is made of spiritual inability there, but as we can clearly see, man's heart is corrupt...

Follow by:

We're addressing the words on the page.

By your own admission in the first quote, you're not.