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Calvinism Misrepresents the Meaning of Death

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JD731, Sep 29, 2020.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You know good and well that is what is meant by the fall.
     
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Actually it is the Bible that claims that.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We have sin natures, as from the womb born apart from God!
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Why did he now need a savior then?
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, means that spiritual dead cannot understand the things of the Lord!
     
  6. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    They claim no such thing. They claim man can not come to a saving knowledge.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    One can hear and read the Bible and see that Jesus is claiming to be God on earth, can tell others what he claimed to be and what he did, but by ourselves cannot know Him as our Lord.
     
  8. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I agree.
     
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  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I noticed in your description that you are a Baptist and it made me wonder why a Baptist would need to ask this question, but yes, Jesus is God.
     
  10. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Death and life of the two scriptural Adams are in reverse order.

    Adam was created a living soul with the emphasis on living
    He had a glorified body
    His soul and the Spirit of God was present in his body
    He sinned
    The Spirit of God departed = spiritual death
    He lived the remainder of his life with his soul only in his body.The glory of his body was gone and he was ravished by time
    In 930 years he died physically
    His body and his soul were separated = physical death
    The body decayed and went back to the dust from which it came
    The soul went to paradise in the center of the earth
    The soul and the body is awaiting the resurrection by the power of the Spirit of God who will glorify the body and indwell it.


    The last Adam was born of God
    He was the express image of God Heb 1:3
    He was made bodily as Abraham Heb 2:12 weak bodily
    The Spirit of God and his soul were present in his body
    He never sinned but sin was placed upon him by his own will
    He satisfied God’s perfect justice by becoming sin personified and enduring God’s wrath against him
    He died spiritually as Adam did, The Spirit departed from his body at 12 o’cLock noon
    At three o’clock he died physically when his soul departed his body and his body was left lifeless
    His body was taken off the tree and buried in a borrowed tomb but it did not suffer decay. This fact is a theme of the preaching of the apostles in Acts
    His soul went to paradise in the center of the earth
    The Spirit went back to God who gave it
    The three parts of the man, Christ Jesus, were separated for 3 days
    On the third day the Spirit of God “quickened” the body of Jesus Christ and glorified it.
    His soul entered into his body and there was no blood in it because the Spirit is the life of the glorified body
    This three part image, one in three and three in one yet one is renewed and is a new birth
    Sin had been taken away and dealt with on behalf of Adams race and reconciliation between the two parties was now achievable.
    God had come to all men through Jesus Christ and now all men could come to God through Jesus Christ
    Those who would come to God through Jesus Christ would be given the Spirit of God and would be in his image, a three part man.
    Two part men coming to God in the name of Jesus Christ and becoming a three part man when the Spirit is given to them
    When Jesus Christ was risen from the dead it is said he was the “the firstborn” Son of God from the dead. The phrase from the dead is key.
    Adam was the head of a race or family of 2 part men and Jesus Christ is the head of a race or a family of 3 part men.
    In either case there must be a birth into the family.
    The promise for all who have experienced the second birth and have the Spirit present in their mortal bodies is that at a certain predetermined time known only to the Father he will come and glorify the body so the son may enter his inheritance which is in heaven. This is called the blessed hope
    No blood in this new body, the Spirit is the life.

    There is much to know and I have not been exhaustive on what I have given you but consider this passage I am going to post with the truths I have written.


    Romans 8:28-3
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Now read what he said just before he said the above.

    Romans 8:14-28
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    Calvinists should re-evaluate their doctrines of life and death. Two part men born of Adam are dead spiritually and have no power in them to keep them from sinning. He must be born again.
     
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    David
    if the words aren't there then it isn't so
    MB
     
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You didn't answer the question. This is the question:
    "It is a Calvinist claim that man is spiritually dead until regeneration that he cannnot hear or understand the things of God. Although God spoke to Adam and Cain as well and they understood."
    What about Adam and Cain? How is it they could speak to God but we can't?
    MB
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    It's not my doctrine it's a Calvinist doctrine. When I was suppose to be spiritually dead I spoke to God before I was saved. Other wise I would not have been saved. It's sort of a Judgement that Calvinist place on us this thing about being spiritually dead. You can't be saved unless you are saved first. You see being made alive according to Calvinist is regeneration not Salvation. You have to be regenerated in order to believe. IOW"s regeneration doesn't mean what the dictionary says it means. It means Salvation.
    MB
     
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    There is one thing I know for sure. Adam was not Spiritually dead he could not have been if in fact he was spiritually dead because of sin. The reason I know this is that Calvinist have told me you cannot talk to God when you are dead spiritually. They swear by it. Yet Adam did. There fore Adam was not dead spiritually. neither was Cain.
    MB
     
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Then why don't Calvinist say what they mean. Adam didn't fall.Adam sinned. But no Calvinist have to take it to another level insanity Unless of course you fell the last time you sinned. Adam did not die spiritually when he sinned either. He spoke to God after he sinned so did Cain. I'll tel you why. It's because Adam was not dead after he sinned. Calvinist claim we inherited what happened to Adam because of his sin and it's a bologna sandwich.
    MB
     
  16. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    It's not Calvinists doctrine. It's the doctrine of some Calvinists, but not Calvinist doctrine.
     
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  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is why asked you if Jesus was God, as God could NEVER experience a spiritual death, as in needing to be born again from being a sinner!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We Calvinists agree that being spiritually dead does not mean physically deaf and dumb!
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Spiritually dead does not mean that the sinner cannot hear from God, nor know about God, as one can quote the bible and tell all about who jesus was and what he did and said, and still be lost !
     
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God needs to have us get regenerated by Himself, and then we can get saved!
     
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