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Featured 2 Cor. 5:18-19

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Quantrill, Oct 11, 2020.

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  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Were you interested in the Interpretation of them?

    ...where the assumed presupposition of, 'all men', having no other meaning that could possibly be considered, is questioned and dismissed as shortsighted?

    ...and where, 'the whole world', customarily, does not mean, 'everyone in the world', as it, also, does not in so many other places, Biblically speaking?
     
    #41 Alan Gross, Oct 13, 2020
  2. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Oh, Alan, I could not hold a candle to you if we were to discuss the deep meaning.
    I just take it as it reads.
    It is God's word to man, right?
     
    #42 SGO, Oct 13, 2020
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    That is a, "no".
     
    #43 Alan Gross, Oct 14, 2020
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Good golly miss molly, can you not admit error. was reconciling does not mean reconciled. Good grief
    I said "reconciled the elect" was left unsaid, so you suggest I said you said...
    No one was "reconciled" when Christ died. His death provides the means to be reconciled.
    No I do not put reconciliation at the point of belief. Here is a material false statement that shows contempt for truth.
    Were the second and third soils of Matthew 13 reconciled at the point of belief? Nope
    Reconciliation occurs at the point God places an individual into the body of Christ.
    So simple a child could understand it...
     
    #44 Van, Oct 14, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  5. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    (Rom. 5:10) "...when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...."

    (2 Cor. 5:19) "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..."

    All of mankind was reconciled to God at the death of Christ.

    You are contradicting yourself and going against Scripture. You say you do not put reconciliation at the point of belief. You then say Reconciliation occurs at the point God places an individual in the Body of Christ.

    Indeed it is simple.

    Quantrill
     
    #45 Quantrill, Oct 14, 2020
  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Can you not see it, brothers and sisters?

    Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
    4 and patience, experience; and experience, hope:
    5 and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."     ( Romans 5:1-11 ).

    Friends, follow the pronouns and read it very carefully...

    Who was reconciled to God?
    The same people that Paul is addressing in the first verse...
    Those that are justified by faith.

    Who has peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ?
    Who glories in tribulations, knowing that those same tribulations work patience in them?
    Whose hearts are the love of God shed abroad in by the Holy Ghost that is given to...who?
    To whom does God commend His love toward?
    While who were yet sinners, Christ died for whom?

    Those that are now justified by His blood, and those that shall be saved from wrath through Him.
    When they were yet enemies, they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.
    Much more, being reconciled, those same people shall be saved by His life.

    Those very same people shall joy ( rejoice ) in God through the Lord Jesus Christ, by whom they have now received the atonement.

    Believers my friends...
    And none else.


    The context is the "whosever believeth.":)
     
    #46 Dave G, Oct 14, 2020
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here it is again, God is reconciling the world meaning humankind by placing individuals into the body of Christ. Once an individual is placed in Christ they are reconciled.
    Indeed it is simple.

    Why not say the point of belief? Read Matthew 13 and note the second and third soils believed yet were not reconciled.
    Indeed it is simple.
     
    #47 Van, Oct 14, 2020
  8. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    The point was that you were contradicting yourself. So, which one do you say?

    (Rom. 5:10) is clear that reconciliation by God is done while we were enemies. "...when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...." Not as we are placed into Christ. This reconciliation is accomplished at the death of Christ. (5:10) It is done when we were ungodly. (5:6) "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (5:8) "...while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

    That death of Christ is the point in time when God was reconciling the world to Himself. At that time we were part of the world. (2 Cor. 5:18) "...God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ..." (5:19) "...that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself..." This is clear that both believers and non-believers were reconciled to God by the death of Christ. The world was reconciled by God to Himself.

    The result of that is what? The worlds trespasses are not imputed to them. (2 Cor. 5:19) "...not imputing their trespasses unto them...." This is the act of God. It is what God has done on behalf of the world. It is done for the whole world, enemies, and ungodly, and sinners.

    The emphasis you are making is when the individual comes to Christ in faith and is placed in Christ. And that is certainly the point in time when we experience the reconciliation God has provided. Thus the admonition, "be ye reconciled to God". (2 Cor. 5:20).

    The world has been reconciled to God, by God, but the world is not in Christ. Thus we preach, or, we should preach, but usually do not, "be ye reconciled to God". God has reconciled you, the world, to Himself already through the death and blood of Christ. He has provided all that is needed. He therefore is not imputing your, the world's, trespasses to you. Trespasses being the active sins the world is participating in now. God in love has done this. Come to Christ. Be ye reconciled to God.

    God's act of reconciling the world to Himself does not place the world in Christ. Just because God is not imputing the trespasses of the world to them, doesn't mean they are saved and on their way to Heaven. God also, as I have already said, did not impute the sins of mankind from Adam to Moses to them. (Rom. 5:13-14) This doesn't mean all from Adam to Moses were believers and saved. It doesn't mean that all went to Heaven. It means because there was no 'Law', God did not impute their sins to them. (5:13) They were still guilty of the sin passed down from Adam to them.

    It does mean that through the act of Christ's death and shedding of blood, the whole world has been reconciled to God by God. It means that through the Federal Headship of One Christ, the whole world's trespasses are not imputed to them. If the whole world has not been reconciled to God by One Jesus Christ, then there is no imputation. If there is no imputation, then neither is there Adam's sin imputed to the world.

    Thus a serious problem. All are sinners on their own. Not in one man, Adam. Therefore salvation for all or many cannot be through One Man, Christ. This means Christ can only save 'one man'. Who is the lucky one?

    Quantrill
     
    #48 Quantrill, Oct 15, 2020
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The claim that my biblical view contradicts itself is false, misleading and disingenuous.
    The world refers to humankind, and some of humankind, those placed in Christ, have been, past tense, reconciled. However, believers are still being added to His kingdom, therefore God is still "reconciling" the world.
    Behold the biblical view that is consistent with all scripture and does not require claiming reconciling really means reconciled. :)
     
    #49 Van, Oct 15, 2020
  10. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    I showed you where your contradiction was.

    Again, you are ignoring the two separate 'reconciliations'. The world was reconciled by God. (2 Cor. 5:18). After that comes the admonition to the individual. 'Be ye reconciled to God'. (5:20)

    Plus you ignored everything I said in post #(48). When God reconciled the world you and the world were enemies. Ungodly. (Rom. 5:6-10) He didn't reconcile you as a believer. If you want to say God did not reconcile you till you placed faith in Christ, then God did not reconcile you when you were enemy to Him. And so, (Rom. 5:10) would be wrong in your view.

    In other words, you are not allowing God to reconcile you or the world to Himself. You are having the believer only reconciling himself to God. It is the work of the believer, you say, who does the reconciliation. A very man centered and works oriented view.

    Quantrill
     
    #50 Quantrill, Oct 16, 2020
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You do not understand representative headship.
    Jesus saves only the Covenant children given to Him by the Father.Hebrews2:13-16
     
    #51 Iconoclast, Oct 16, 2020
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    At the White Throne judgment, sinners who go into second death are not reconciled to God,their sins are fully charged against them.
     
    #52 Iconoclast, Oct 16, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    That doesn't explain Federal Headship. So, lets see if you can explain it. Show me how Federal Headship works.

    Quantrill
     
    #53 Quantrill, Oct 16, 2020
  14. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    All were reconciled to God by God. (2 Cor. 5:19) Those at the Great White Throne judgement are those who would not be reconciled to God. They didn't want to be reconciled to God. They didn't want God. The truth remains, they are going to hell though God had reconciled all of mankind to Himself. God did the work, but they rejected such work.

    Understand that reconciliation is not the same as being saved. God dealt with that which was between the world and Him at the Cross. Man was now reconciled. God extended a hand out of love toward man. This act didn't save anyone, but it reconciled all of mankind to God. It remained for man to turn to God and 'be ye reconciled'.

    This will become clearer as you try and explain Federal Headship.

    Quantrill
     
    #54 Quantrill, Oct 16, 2020
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am sorry Sir if you think your claims above are rational.

    To be reconciled is to go from being an enemy of God to being at peace with God.

    You claim I am having the believer reconcile himself to God is a material false statement.

    You ignore that being a believer (such as those of Matthew 7) has nothing to do with self reconciliation.

    Salvation does not depend on the man that wills to be saved, Romans 9:16.

    God is reconciling the world to Himself, one sinner at a time, when He alone places them into the body of Christ. So simple a child could understand it.
     
    #55 Van, Oct 16, 2020
  16. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    My claims are Scriptural. Thus, no need to apologize.

    And God reconciled man to Himself. They were no longer enemies. That is the act of God, (2 Cor. 5:19), accomplished in Jesus Christ.

    Strange statement you make. I have said you only address the individuals part at 'be ye reconciled to God'. You ignore Gods act of reconciling the world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:19-20) The believer is to reconcile himself to God. But that is after God has already reconciled the world to Himself.

    No, the 'one sinner at a time' is the individual reconciling himself to God. Again, you ignore God's reconciling the world.

    Quantrill
     
    #56 Quantrill, Oct 16, 2020
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Repeating bogus views does not make them less bogus. Your view is unbiblical.
    God is reconciling the world (mankind) to himself, one believer at a time. Your claim God has completed that process is without any support anywhere in scripture.

    And once again you make the material false statement I have ignored part of your screed.

    Does the bible say we reconcile ourselves to God? Nope. Such is your ludicrous claim.
     
    #57 Van, Oct 16, 2020
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @Van, Your rhetoric does not explain how @Quantrill misunderstands God reconciling the world unto Himself.
     
    #58 37818, Oct 16, 2020
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Steven, how is faith, as you are using it, not a merited work that causes God to call that person righteous? It seems you and Van live in the same camp. Convince me otherwise.
     
    #59 AustinC, Oct 16, 2020
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Q, you miss the mark.
     
    #60 AustinC, Oct 16, 2020
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