Adam versus believers

[Agent47]

Adam sinned and he died, which means he was alive before his sin.

Did Adam possess eternal life that he lost upon sinning?

If yes, can believers similarly lose eternal life?

If no, did God create a spiritually dead Adam? What exactly happened at Adam's death in Eden?

 

[atpollard]

Adam sinned and he died, which means he was alive before his sin.

Did Adam possess eternal life that he lost upon sinning?

Yes, Adam had and lost eternal life.

If yes, can believers similarly lose eternal life?

No.
“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.” [Romans 5:15]

If no, did God create a spiritually dead Adam?

No, God did not create a spiritually dead Adam.
Adam had a relationship with God.
[Gen 2:7, 16-17, 21-22]

What exactly happened at Adam's death in Eden?

Good question with an important answer.
What do YOU think scripture says happened?

 

[Quantrill]

Adam sinned and he died, which means he was alive before his sin.

Did Adam possess eternal life that he lost upon sinning?

If yes, can believers similarly lose eternal life?

If no, did God create a spiritually dead Adam? What exactly happened at Adam's death in Eden?

Of course Adam was spiritually alive prior to the fall. He was created body, soul, and spirit, and he, his spirit, was in right relationship to God.

When Adam sinned, he, his spirit and soul, and body died. Meaning he, his spirit and soul, and body were separated from God, and death began working in his body.

You ask if believers, as Adam, can lose eternal life? There is a difference between believers and Adam today. Adam was right with God and then sinned. Believers are first born lost in this world, then get saved. That which secures believers was not yet present in experience, when Adam fell. It was in the works.

A couple of questions to consider also: Is there, or was there, any doubt that God would not save Adam and Eve? And, why should He? I mean they were just two people. Why not destroy them and make two others? Look how many billions have gone to hell in allowing them to live.

Do you believe Adam and Eve were children of God and saved after the fall?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Correction in above post, #(3). I meant to say "any doubt that God would save Adam and Eve?"

Quantrill

 

[Dave G]

Adam sinned and he died, which means he was alive before his sin.

Did Adam possess eternal life that he lost upon sinning?

If yes, can believers similarly lose eternal life?

If no, did God create a spiritually dead Adam? What exactly happened at Adam's death in Eden?

I think that you already know the answers to those questions, "Agent 47".

But to answer your questions for the benefit of other readers,
I'll break it down according to my understanding of the Scriptures so far.

 

[Dave G]

Adam sinned and he died, which means he was alive before his sin.

I agree.

Romans 5:12-14. <--- Sin entered into the world by Adam and Eve.
Romans 1:18-25. <--- "When they knew God"...

Spiritual life is to know God ( John 17:3 ), and Adam and Eve certainly knew the Lord at one point.

Did Adam possess eternal life that he lost upon sinning?

No.
He possessed spiritual life, which is to know God;
But it was not eternal or he would not have died, spiritually.

Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) given by Christ to those that the Father has given to Him ( John 17:2 ).
Those who are given this gift ( eternal life ), shall never die ( John 11:25-26 ).

If yes, can believers similarly lose eternal life?

No.
John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:39-40, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:31-39, 1 Peter 1:5 and many others.

If no, did God create a spiritually dead Adam? What exactly happened at Adam's death in Eden?

No.

Adam knew God, so he was spiritually alive...
and then, relationally and because of his disobedience to God's command, spiritually separated himself from that relationship.
Sin drove a wedge between him and the Lord...

A wedge that became ever wider due to mankind's increasing love of sin and God's decision to give us over to that which we came to love.

 

[JonC]

Adam sinned and he died, which means he was alive before his sin.

Did Adam possess eternal life that he lost upon sinning?

If yes, can believers similarly lose eternal life?

If no, did God create a spiritually dead Adam? What exactly happened at Adam's death in Eden?

No, Adam did not possess eternal life (he died).

And we have to be careful not to fall into the tra of believing scripture teaches Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit (to do so os a formal logical falacy....it sounds right on tge surface but it is faulty logic).

Adam might have lived forever....or death might have entered the world differently....we just do not know and it is irrelevant because it is a hypothetical and philosophical issue.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, Adam did not possess eternal life (he died).

And we have to be careful not to fall into the tra of believing scripture teaches Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit (to do so os a formal logical falacy....it sounds right on tge surface but it is faulty logic).

Adam might have lived forever....or death might have entered the world differently....we just do not know and it is irrelevant because it is a hypothetical and philosophical issue.

And we have to be careful not to fall into the trap of making the Bible not say what it so clearly says in order to make it comply with our faulty understanding of what a logical fallacy is.

 

[JonC]

And we have to be careful not to fall into the trap of making the Bible not say what it so clearly says in order to make it comply with our faulty understanding of what a logical fallacy is.

I agree. We need to adhere to God's Word, not assume things based on our own understanding (we cannot assume Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit as this is philosophical and hypothetical....it ADDS to Scripture).

When we do start reasoning out things we have to be logical in our reasoning. God is not a God of chaos but of order.

The addition to Scripture that Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit us a formal logical fallacy. It is denying the antecedent (fallacy of the inverse or inverse error).

If P, then Q.
Therefore, if not P, then not Q.

It is faulty reasoning, but worse than that in this case it actually adds to God's Word what is not there.

I hold a high view of Scripture (of the biblical text). So I do believe we have to handle Scripture with respect, as our singular authority for doctrine, as objective, and as complete. This includes making sure to identify errors and fallacies in our understanding.

Would Adam have lived forever? We cannot say (it is a philosophical, hypothetical question). My caution to those who would add to Scripture is that he would have is twofold - first, your reasoning is flawed and presents God as a God of chaos as you move into vain philosophy. And second, you are adding to scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

And we have to be careful not to rrfall into the trap of making the Bible not say what it so clearly says in order to make it comply with our faulty understanding of what a logical fallacy is.

Hello Brother,
Of course you are correct here.
People have understood these truths for a long time as God has given us all that pertains to life and godliness.
Have you ever contemplated how a professed Christian turns into a John Shelby Spong?
They trust in their flawed education and philosophy, convinced that they alone see what millions of believers have not seen.
They make all kinds of philosophical double talk,and confuse the clear teaching with obtuse novelties, or failed ideas and set themselves up as the last word.
A denial of the events of the fall,leads to a tragic series of errors,affecting every area of theology.
Even in our day we see this as supposed teachers set the bar low, and hit it.

 

[JonC]

Hello Brother,
Of course you are correct here.
People have understood these truths for a long time as God has given us all that pertains to life and godliness.
Have you ever contemplated how a professed Christian turns into a John Shelby Spong?
They trust in their flawed education and philosophy, convinced that they alone see what millions of believers have not seen.
They make all kinds of philosophical double talk,and confuse the clear teaching with obtuse novelties, or failed ideas and set themselves up as the last word.
A denial of the events of the fall,leads to a tragic series of errors,affecting every area of theology.
Even in our day we see this as supposed teachers set the bar low, and hit it.

I seriously doubt anyone would question that @Martin Marprelate is correct.

We agree (I think) that we are to avoid vain philosophy and hypotheticals to adhere to the Word of God. And we agree (I hope) that God is not a foolish God prone to illogical discourse and chaos.

With Adam, it is wrong (it is adding to Scripture) to say that Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit. It is also a formal logical fallacy.

To simply the fallacy for those who may not grasp the fact - If I say you and your family will die if you jump into shark infested waters with those T-bone steaks tied around your neck this does not mean I am saying that you will live if you remove the steaks and jump into the water. It is not saying that you will live if you stay in the boat either. It is saying that on the day you jump into the water with those steaks tied around your neck you will surely die.

We cannot play the fool to accept doctrines. We cannot pretend God is foolish and illogical. These questions - "Can God make a round square", "Would Adam have lived forever had he not taken the fruit", "Could Christ have sinned and if not did he have free-will" are all philosophical questions. What makes the one about Adam much worse is people often answer foolishly by denying the antecedent.

The fact is we do not know what would have happened if Adam did not eat of the fruit except that Adam would have acted in such a way as to make void God's plan. Perhaps he would have lived forever. Or perhaps he would have disobeyed in some other way. We do not know and it is wrong (it is a sin) to add to Scripture.

 

[JonC]

Given @Iconoclast and @Martin Marprelate 's posts I want to make something very clear:

I am not saying that people should not say that they think Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit. Tom Cassidy explained that he believed Adam would have eaten of the Tree of Life had he not sinned, but acknowledged those to just be his thoughts on the subject.

Where it becomes wrong (perhaps even sinful) is when we add to Scripture our own philosophies or theories. We can, of course, hold them. But we are wrong to say that Scripture teaches those things.

A good rule of thumb is to highlight where you believe those things are taught and then show someone that highlighted text and have them read it out loud. In this case, you would never come close to hearing "Adam would have lived forever. That is something people may think if they are unable to read Scripture (if they are not logical in their reasoning).

This is where @Dave G and I are on very common ground. Scripture matters. God wrote Scripture through men, but what was written was recorded as the Spirit guided. We have to be faithful to Scripture and not allow our own philosophy, theories, or theologies to change God's Word.

I am teaching from Isaiah 46 tomorrow. In the passage Isaiah warns against idols. Elevating philosophies to or over Scripture is idolatry in many cases. @Iconoclast rightly points to Scripture - this is our standard. Some may say that Scripture "teaches" and then follow up with their theories and may think that the Spirit of God told them this. The truth is a spirit may have given them some special revelation, but it was not the Spirit of God. God is clear. And nowhere in Scripture is it written that Adam would have lived forever.


“Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. "

People need to refrain from playing God and simply observe and obey what God has written. Stop trying to answer silly questions that are not in Scripture and apply what is actually in the Bible to your lives.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Given @Iconoclast and @Martin Marprelate 's posts I want to make something very clear:

I am not saying that people should not say that they think Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit. Tom Cassidy explained that he believed Adam would have eaten of the Tree of Life had he not sinned, but acknowledged those to just be his thoughts on the subject.

Where it becomes wrong (perhaps even sinful) is when we add to Scripture our own philosophies or theories. We can, of course, hold them. But we are wrong to say that Scripture teaches those things.

A good rule of thumb is to highlight where you believe those things are taught and then show someone that highlighted text and have them read it out loud. In this case, you would never come close to hearing "Adam would have lived forever. That is something people may think if they are unable to read Scripture (if they are not logical in their reasoning).

This is where @Dave G and I are on very common ground. Scripture matters. God wrote Scripture through men, but what was written was recorded as the Spirit guided. We have to be faithful to Scripture and not allow our own philosophy, theories, or theologies to change God's Word.

I am teaching from Isaiah 46 tomorrow. In the passage Isaiah warns against idols. Elevating philosophies to or over Scripture is idolatry in many cases. @Iconoclast rightly points to Scripture - this is our standard. Some may say that Scripture "teaches" and then follow up with their theories and may think that the Spirit of God told them this. The truth is a spirit may have given them some special revelation, but it was not the Spirit of God. God is clear. And nowhere in Scripture is it written that Adam would have lived forever.


“Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. "

People need to refrain from playing God and simply observe and obey what God has written. Stop trying to answer silly questions that are not in Scripture and apply what is actually in the Bible to your lives.

I agree with the sentiments expressed.

Death for Adam was always "in the cards," as was Life through "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This had to be for God's love for man to be made manifest and complete.

There is a "secular" song I cannot hear the words to without picturing Jesus headed to and on the Cross, as well as hear his words echoing, "Follow me." Here's just the chorus to "I Want to Know What Love Is", but the whole song is good.

I wanna know what love is
I want you to show me
I wanna feel what love is
I know you can show me

 

[percho]

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:26,27 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Psalms 8:4,5
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

At some point in time one must ask oneself why was the creation of man out of dirt?

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it was thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Gen 3:19

What was the plan for the man formed from dirt? Was, hope, the plan before the man was made from dirt?

 

[percho]

and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death. Heb 2:9

Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8

and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, 'What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands,

Why was man, Adam made a little lower than the angels, made from dirt?

Was it because even before man was created, the devil had the power of the death?

 

[Quantrill]

Given @Iconoclast and @Martin Marprelate 's posts I want to make something very clear:

I am not saying that people should not say that they think Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit. Tom Cassidy explained that he believed Adam would have eaten of the Tree of Life had he not sinned, but acknowledged those to just be his thoughts on the subject.

Where it becomes wrong (perhaps even sinful) is when we add to Scripture our own philosophies or theories. We can, of course, hold them. But we are wrong to say that Scripture teaches those things.


People need to refrain from playing God and simply observe and obey what God has written. Stop trying to answer silly questions that are not in Scripture and apply what is actually in the Bible to your lives.

Nice speech...but this is a forum. Some questions may be silly to me yet important to another. So you ask them and talk it out.

You place your views of what Scripture is saying above anyone else's. Everyone just needs to 'observe and obey' what you say Scripture says.

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

Nice speech...but this is a forum. Some questions may be silly to me yet important to another. So you ask them and talk it out.

You place your views of what Scripture is saying above anyone else's. Everyone just needs to 'observe and obey' what you say Scripture says.

Quantrill

It is not a speech.

It is wrong to say that Scripture says something that it does not. That is plain and (I hope) simple.

I hold doctrines that are not specifically stated in Scripture (they are doctrines I reason out of Scripture). The point is to be HONEST and not lie. I would be a liar if I said that scripture says something it does not say....period. I can say that I believe such and such to be true and why based on Scripture. But I would be placing myself in the place of God to say that Scripture says something that is not actually in scripture.

We are not ignorant - we have Bibles. We have access to the sources used for English translations. There is no excuse to add to Scripture.

Do you add to Scripture or are you honest enough to admit what is reasoned from Scripture?

 

[Quantrill]

It is not a speech.

It is wrong to say that Scripture says something that it does not. That is plain and (I hope) simple.

I hold doctrines that are not specifically stated in Scripture (they are doctrines I reason out of Scripture). The point is to be HONEST and not lie. I would be a liar if I said that scripture says something it does not say....period. I can say that I believe such and such to be true and why based on Scripture. But I would be placing myself in the place of God to say that Scripture says something that is not actually in scripture.

We are not ignorant - we have Bibles. We have access to the sources used for English translations. There is no excuse to add to Scripture.

Do you add to Scripture or are you honest enough to admit what is reasoned from Scripture?

Why are you asking me?. You set yourself up as the judge as to what is Scripture, or what Scripture says, not me.

So, read post #(3), and let me know your verdict.

Was I reasoning from Scripture, or did I add to Scripture?

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

Why are you asking me?. You set yourself up as the judge as to what is Scripture, or what Scripture says, not me.

So, read post #(3), and let me know your verdict.

Was I reasoning from Scripture, or did I add to Scripture?

Quantrill

I am asking you if you believe Scripture itself (the text of Scripture) is enough or if you think that we need to add to what Scripture says.

I am not adding to Scripture. What I am saying is the Bible does not say that Adam would have lived forever had he eaten of the fruit. You seem to suggest that by not adding that to the Bible I am adding to Scripture.

You seem to suggest that Adam possessed Spiritual life, yet this is not actually in the Bible. Did Adam have a human spirit....sure. But it was still a spirit of the flesh. That we can say. But we cannot say Adam lost "spiritual life" or "died spiritually" and claim that is in the Bible (because, of course, it is not).

What I am asking you is if you were saying your conclusion (what you reasoned from scripture....just as others will reason something entirely different from scripture) is actually Scripture. That's all. Are you equating your reason with God's Word?

 

[Iconoclast]

Nice speech...but this is a forum. Some questions may be silly to me yet important to another. So you ask them and talk it out.

You place your views of what Scripture is saying above anyone else's. Everyone just needs to 'observe and obey' what you say Scripture says.

Quantrill

A scripture reading itself does always explain the text in full or we would only be told just read scripture out loud. We are told to search out, to study scripture.

The Spirit is given to allow us to welcome spiritual truth. Some deny this, but it is plain.
Adam died Spiritually at the fall, Romans 5 is clear on this. Some deny it, and invent novelties .

It does not use the term born again in Acts. Does that mean no one was born again there?
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.