Adam versus believers

[JonC]

We have to be very careful when men decide something not in the Bible is the "plain teaching", "natural reading", or "obvious meaning" of a biblical text. There are many followers of men who are wolves in sheep clothing.

That is one sign of a cult - "Scripture says this but teaches this other thing". It is of a spirit, but not the Spirit.

Trust in Scripture. Develop your understanding. But lean on God's Word and not your own understanding.

It is not wrong to hold extra-biblical views (we all do). But it is a sin against God to add to His Word your interpretation or understanding.

Spiritual maturity includes making that distinction.

Man's wisdom deals in hypothetical and philosophical arguments (like what if Adam did not eat the fruit). God's wisdom, spiritual truth, is the application of what is written to one's life.

 

[JonC]

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

A word of caution -

This could be misunderstood as a claim that the belief Adam would have lived forever (a hypothetical) is a "deep thing of God".

As far as I know you, like me, reject the idea of second special revelation and hold Scripture as our authority.

But another reading your post may not know this. I point it out as anyone could say anything extra-biblical and add it's "plain teaching", "the natural reading", or "obvious meaning" as a way of "proving their point". That is what cult members do. And that is why we use the Bible to guard against these wolves (even well-meaning ones, which I suspect are the majority).

I'm sure you would never claim Calvinism to be the "deep things" of God or "spiritual truth", even though you are a Calvinist (because you are also a Christian). You grasp (I think) the difference between God's Word and human understanding of God's Word, and of biblical doctrine vs Spiritual truth. This thread is about a purely hypothetical (and God is not a God of "if's") so it is even less important a topic.

 

[Iconoclast]

Adam had life....I never said it was eternal.
Any spiritual truth rightly understood is only when the Spirit gives a new heart and allows the spiritual truth to be welcomed.
Adam died spiritually at the fall with physical death to follow.

Reading or quoting a few verses is just that. The Spirit allows us to compare spiritual things with spiritual. Scripture interprets scripture.

Men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam.
There was one point in time when the reality of Spiritual death entered the whole human race. You have denied this in times past. You are welcome to your ideas.

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

We have to be very careful when men decide something not in the Bible is the "plain teaching", "natural reading", or "obvious meaning" of a biblical text. There are many followers of men who are wolves in sheep clothing.

Because you cannot "see it" does not mean it is not there.

That is one sign of a cult - "Scripture says this but teaches this other thing". It is of a spirit, but not the Spirit.

The Bereans were not a cult...Acts17:11.

Philip did not share your view; The Spirit sent him there to give the meaning, Philip did not say read it for yourself, did he?
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Trust in Scripture. Develop your understanding. But lean on God's Word and not your own understanding.

God would not have given Pastors and teachers to the church if they were not needed, but indeed he has. They are gifts to the church.
Did you tell your class..hey read it for yourself, I cannot help you?

It is not wrong to hold extra-biblical views (we all do). But it is a sin against God to add to His Word your interpretation or understanding.

You make such assumptions that people are adding to scripture???
No one is adding to scripture,
The other day you posted this;

@Iconoclast argued that Paul quoted scripture and reasoned through scripture with tge men of Athens because that was Paul's method. There are serious problem with that claim.

That is not what I posted at all.I showed Paul as His custom was using scripture, opening and alleging...legal terms...

17 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
With the philosophers he sought to establish the TRUTHS of scripture that God is Creator, Sustainer, Redeemer and Judge.

Do you see the difference? in the first case I showed his normal custom, and on the other thread I showed the words meant just that...
Then how he was in the process of establishing scripture as his authority was his custom, but when they mocked he moved on, bearing witness against them.
Do not post that I said something I did not say.

 

[Quantrill]

I am asking you if you believe Scripture itself (the text of Scripture) is enough or if you think that we need to add to what Scripture says.

I am not adding to Scripture. What I am saying is the Bible does not say that Adam would have lived forever had he eaten of the fruit. You seem to suggest that by not adding that to the Bible I am adding to Scripture.

You seem to suggest that Adam possessed Spiritual life, yet this is not actually in the Bible. Did Adam have a human spirit....sure. But it was still a spirit of the flesh. That we can say. But we cannot say Adam lost "spiritual life" or "died spiritually" and claim that is in the Bible (because, of course, it is not).

What I am asking you is if you were saying your conclusion (what you reasoned from scripture....just as others will reason something entirely different from scripture) is actually Scripture. That's all. Are you equating your reason with God's Word?

No, you set yourself as judge over what people should believe in the Bible. You didn't ask anyone anything till I commented to you. So, as I said, read post #(3) and exercise your verdict.

You are using your interpretation of Scripture to declare others are adding to Scripture.

Concerning your comment that I "seem to suggest": I didn't 'seem to suggest' anything. I said "Of course". Where is the breakdown in your reasoning ability?

Did I say my reasoning is equated with Scripture? If I didn't say it, then why do you suggest I might be saying it. You're big on exactly what is said. Yet you want to read into what I said, something I didn't say.

You're the judge, as you set yourself to be. You should be able to determine through your interpretation of the Bible what I am saying. Because, after all, your interpretation is the one that counts.

Quantrill

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, Adam did not possess eternal life (he died).

And we have to be careful not to fall into the tra of believing scripture teaches Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit (to do so os a formal logical falacy....it sounds right on tge surface but it is faulty logic).

Adam might have lived forever....or death might have entered the world differently....we just do not know and it is irrelevant because it is a hypothetical and philosophical issue.

but what you are saying is no more than speculation! Death entered the world because of sin, as Romans 5:12 very clearly says, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned". Before this time, there was no sin, and therefore no death. And who says that Adam and Eve were not created to live forever?

 

[Quantrill]

We have to be very careful when men decide something not in the Bible is the "plain teaching", "natural reading", or "obvious meaning" of a biblical text. There are many followers of men who are wolves in sheep clothing.

That is one sign of a cult - "Scripture says this but teaches this other thing". It is of a spirit, but not the Spirit.

Trust in Scripture. Develop your understanding. But lean on God's Word and not your own understanding.

It is not wrong to hold extra-biblical views (we all do). But it is a sin against God to add to His Word your interpretation or understanding.

Spiritual maturity includes making that distinction.

Man's wisdom deals in hypothetical and philosophical arguments (like what if Adam did not eat the fruit). God's wisdom, spiritual truth, is the application of what is written to one's life.

Who is it that is not trusting in Scripture? Who are these wolves in sheep clothing? How do you determine? Does the Bible point them out?

You say 'trust in Scripture' but that will be your interpretation of Scripture. So, again, you set yourself as the judge.

Who is sinning by adding to the Word of God? An interpretation or understanding is not adding to the Word of God. Why do you accuse those who have a different interpretation of 'adding to the Word of God'?

And, I guess you're the one with the 'spiritual maturity' to exercise these judgements.

The Bible is the truth. We seek to know and learn the truth. To the extent that our interpretation and understanding is correct, then any application is correct. To the extent that our interpretation or understanding is not correct, then the application will be incorrect also.

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

No, you set yourself as judge over what people should believe in the Bible. You didn't ask anyone anything till I commented to you. So, as I said, read post #(3) and exercise your verdict.

You are using your interpretation of Scripture to declare others are adding to Scripture.

Concerning your comment that I "seem to suggest": I didn't 'seem to suggest' anything. I said "Of course". Where is the breakdown in your reasoning ability?

Did I say my reasoning is equated with Scripture? If I didn't say it, then why do you suggest I might be saying it. You're big on exactly what is said. Yet you want to read into what I said, something I didn't say.

You're the judge, as you set yourself to be. You should be able to determine through your interpretation of the Bible what I am saying. Because, after all, your interpretation is the one that counts.

Quantrill

You misunderstand.

I am saying people can interpret the Bible differently. People can have beliefs beyond the text of Scripture. We all do.

But it is wrong to add to Scripture what is not actually in Scripture. Cult leaders will tell you "deep truths" of God in addition to what God has actually revealed.

You are assuming God's Word is subjective. It is not.

We can see what is written and what is not. If it is not written you can still believe it. But do not expect others to agree that your extra-biblical ideas are actually God's Word.

 

[JonC]

Adam had life....I never said it was eternal.
Any spiritual truth rightly understood is only when the Spirit gives a new heart and allows the spiritual truth to be welcomed.
Adam died spiritually at the fall with physical death to follow.

Reading or quoting a few verses is just that. The Spirit allows us to compare spiritual things with spiritual. Scripture interprets scripture.

Men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam.
There was one point in time when the reality of Spiritual death entered the whole human race. You have denied this in times past. You are welcome to your ideas.

Please be careful not to lie or misrepresent my position. We get enough of this with politicians this time of the year .

I have never denied that Adam was created with a human spirit.

I am saying Scripture interprets Scripture and human philosophy is misleading. With this topic you have to add illogical reasoning (some do make logical errors and conclude Adam would have lived forever....I am glad you are not among those).

I was not rejecting what you wrote but only pointing out for clarity it could be misinterpreted to suggest cognitive acceptance of a human understanding or interpretation is "spiritual truth".

 

[JonC]

Who is it that is not trusting in Scripture? Who are these wolves in sheep clothing? How do you determine? Does the Bible point them out?

It would be those who add to Scrioture the "plain teachings", "obvious meaning", or "natural reading" of Scripture.

The reason is they replace God's Word with their understanding of God's Word.

You can know a wolf by their misguided words (their understanding/ interpretations are the "deep things" of God, the Spirit led them to these extra-biblical theories or doctrines, theirs is the plain reaching of scripture, the obvious meaning, the natural reading....etc.).

Professing to be wise they are indeed fools - NOT because of their interpretations but because they elevate their understanding to the point of Scripture. They are spiritually blind and often cannot tell the difference between Hod's Word and their own.

Sometimes it is an issue of spiritual immaturity. Sometimes of biblical illiteracy. Sometimes flawed thinking or logic. I believe rarely is it intentional.

Yes, the Bible points them out. You can tell a wolf by listening to them, Bible and highlighter in hand. When they attribute something to Scripture rather than interpretation highlight it in your Bible. If it is not there you may very well be in the presence of a wolf.

Wolves and false teachers make no room for other interpretations by replacing God's Word with their own

 

[Iconoclast]

Please be careful not to lie or misrepresent my position. We get enough of this with politicians this time of the year .

I have never denied that Adam was created with a human spirit.

I am saying Scripture interprets Scripture and human philosophy is misleading. With this topic you have to add illogical reasoning (some do make logical errors and conclude Adam would have lived forever....I am glad you are not among those).

I was not rejecting what you wrote but only pointing out for clarity it could be misinterpreted to suggest cognitive acceptance of a human understanding or interpretation is "spiritual truth".

I did not say you denied Adam had a human spirit.
Where do you think I said this?
Could you give a direct quote of me posting this idea?
You do not want to be misrepresented, well no one does so show where You see me posting this?

 

[JonC]

I did not say you denied Adam had a human spirit.
Where do you think I said this?
Could you give a direct quote of me posting this idea?
You do not want to be misrepresented, well no one does so show where You see me posting this?

You said that I denied "there was a point in time when the reality of spiritual death entered the whole human race." That is not true, but I understand you believe it is true.

Given this thread is about the hypothetical state of Adam had he not eaten of the fruit I thought that was the context of your statement.

What I believe is that without the indwelling of the Spirit we do not possess spiritual life (ontologically). We must be born again. Because of Adam sin entered tge world (and death through sin, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God).

Adam's disobedience made spiritual death a reality. I am not sure how you became confused regarding my position, but that's ok.

 

[Iconoclast]

You said that I denied "there was a point in time when the reality of spiritual death entered the whole human race." That is not true, but I understand you believe it is true.

Given this thread is about the hypothetical state of Adam had he not eaten of the fruit I thought that was the context of your statement.

What I believe is that without the indwelling of the Spirit we do not possess spiritual life (ontologically). We must be born again. Because of Adam sin entered tge world (and death through sin, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God).

Adam's disobedience made spiritual death a reality. I am not sure how you beame confused regarding my position, but that's ok.

My post does not say that you denied Adam had a human spirit.
You claimed I said that, which I never have done.
I am not confused by your "position" at all.
You can hold what you want but I am not discussing that here.

 

[percho]

And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature (soul). Gen 2:7 YLT
for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; From Lev. 17:11 Darby
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Psalms 8:4,5
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I believe that man, at that moment, was in need of being born again. He was going to sin and bring forth death.

Consider: The Lamb was already considered as slain. Foreordained to shed his precious blood, wherein was the soul of the flesh of him.

he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8 YLT
Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14

If the sin of the devil preceded the sin of man, was death the means by which God was going to destroy the devil, who had the power of death?

Or, did the sin of and the works of the devil begin with the sin of Adam?

 

[JonC]

My post does not say that you denied Adam had a human spirit.
You claimed I said that, which I never have done.
I am not confused by your "position" at all.
You can hold what you want but I am not discussing that here.

I already agreed with you that you were not discussing Adam living forever or Adam having a human spirit. I was trying to take your comments in context of the thread rather than in context of spiritual death. I apologize for misunderstanding your point.

But you made a false accusation. This is why I say that you are confused about what I believe (you are not grasping what I have said, and that has led to a lack of understanding on your part about my positions).

This shows your error:

Men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam.
There was one point in time when the reality of Spiritual death entered the whole human race. You have denied this in times past. You are welcome to your ideas.

I believe (and have always believed) that men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam. It is wrong of you to even imply I denied this.

I believe (and have always believed) that there was one point in time when the reality of Spiritual death entered the whole human race. It was wrong of you to imply that I denied this.

I see this type of behavior enough in politics. Politicians often keep repeating lies about other people, about what they have said, in hopes that others will believe their false claims true. Biden did this when he accused Trump of calling all Mexicans rapists. Now there are some who actually believe the lie.

So to clarify to the board and anyone following this thread or our dialogue - I have never denied that men are born spiritually dead or that there was a point in time when the reality of not only spiritual death but physical death entered the whole human race. In fact, affirming those two truths is a major part of my denial of evolution.

What @Iconoclast posted is a false accusation (I have never denied what he claims I have denied). But I am sure he posted out of ignorance rather than malice.

Now think about that. If @Iconoclast comes up with an idea about me that is fiction, and I really do not matter, then what does this say about handling Scripture? If you cannot be trusted with the small stuff then you can't be trusted with the big stuff. We have to go back to the source (here @Iconoclast should have come to me, and I should have gone to him). With doctrine we go back to the source (God's Word). The problem with claiming a second "special revelation" (which is what we are really speaking of here) is that it cannot be confirmed with Scripture because it is interpretation and not actually God's Word.

The "deep things" of God and "spiritual truths" are not additional special revelations but an application of God's Word in our lives (on a spiritual level).

 

[Quantrill]

You misunderstand.

I am saying people can interpret the Bible differently. People can have beliefs beyond the text of Scripture. We all do.

But it is wrong to add to Scripture what is not actually in Scripture. Cult leaders will tell you "deep truths" of God in addition to what God has actually revealed.

You are assuming God's Word is subjective. It is not.

We can see what is written and what is not. If it is not written you can still believe it. But do not expect others to agree that your extra-biblical ideas are actually God's Word.

Again, who's adding to Scripture?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

It would be those who add to Scrioture the "plain teachings", "obvious meaning", or "natural reading" of Scripture.

The reason is they replace God's Word with their understanding of God's Word.

You can know a wolf by their misguided words (their understanding/ interpretations are the "deep things" of God, the Spirit led them to these extra-biblical theories or doctrines, theirs is the plain reaching of scripture, the obvious meaning, the natural reading....etc.).

Professing to be wise they are indeed fools - NOT because of their interpretations but because they elevate their understanding to the point of Scripture. They are spiritually blind and often cannot tell the difference between Hod's Word and their own.

Sometimes it is an issue of spiritual immaturity. Sometimes of biblical illiteracy. Sometimes flawed thinking or logic. I believe rarely is it intentional.

Yes, the Bible points them out. You can tell a wolf by listening to them, Bible and highlighter in hand. When they attribute something to Scripture rather than interpretation highlight it in your Bible. If it is not there you may very well be in the presence of a wolf.

Wolves and false teachers make no room for other interpretations by replacing God's Word with their own

OK. Point them out. Who's adding to Scripture?

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

Again, who's adding to Scripture?

Quantrill

I do not know. I am saying that we should not add to Scripture. When we interpret a passage to mean something we need to take ownership of that interpretation and not say it is Scripture if it is in fact not.

I am not saying anyone is adding....although I'm sure if I look I can find examples of exactly that.

Are you suggesting it is OK to add to Scripture?

 

[JonC]

OK. Point them out. Who's adding to Scripture?

Quantrill

I'm saying when you see someone say "abc" and then claim that is a "deep truth of God", or "the plain meaning", "natural reading", or "obvious meaning" of a text then you need to watch out because you are addressing someone who is a false teacher (either intentionally or out of ignorance). Those words are used when people who cannot defend their positions want to puff up their words to the level of Scripture.

I am not saying anyone is adding to Scripture. I tell my son to be careful crossing the road. That does not mean I just saw someone get hit by a car.

 

[Quantrill]

I do not know. I am saying that we should not add to Scripture. When we interpret a passage to mean something we need to take ownership of that interpretation and not say it is Scripture if it is in fact not.

I am not saying anyone is adding....although I'm sure if I look I can find examples of exactly that.

Are you suggesting it is OK to add to Scripture?

I am saying you brought it up in the context of the discussion. Thus you have someone in mind. Don't say you just felt like making a good point out of the blue.

If you're sure you can find an example of who is adding to Scripture here, then by all means, tell me. Again, you made the claim.

Quantrill