Adam versus believers

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

I already agreed with you that you were not discussing Adam living forever or Adam having a human spirit.

No you said I denied it...
Iconoclast said: ↑
My post does not say that you denied Adam had a human spirit.
You claimed I said that, which I never have done.

But you made a false accusation.

Looks like you did that, not me.


[QUOTE]I believe (and have always believed) that men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam. It is wrong of you to even imply I denied this.
[/QUOTE]
That was not the point you denied and you know it, we were discussing Adam and the fall ...

I believe (and have always believed) that there was one point in time when the reality of Spiritual death entered the whole human race. It was wrong of you to imply that I denied this.

I will let the readers decide for themselves...the discussion was dealing with Adam and the fall , you tried to change it so we will let the readers look for themselves.

So to clarify to the board and anyone following this thread or our dialogue - I have never denied that men are born spiritually dead or that there was a point in time when the reality of not only spiritual death but physical death entered the whole human race.

I will let the readers decide...if they take the time, they will get an eyeful.

What @Iconoclast posted is a false accusation (I have never denied what he claims I have denied). But I am sure he posted out of ignorance rather than malice.

Now think about that. If @Iconoclast comes up with an idea about me that is fiction, and I really do not matter, then what does this say about handling Scripture? If you cannot be trusted with the small stuff then you can't be trusted with the big stuff. We have to go back to the source (here @Iconoclast should have come to me, and I should have gone to him). With doctrine we go back to the source (God's Word). The problem with claiming a second "special revelation" (which is what we are really speaking of here) is that it cannot be confirmed with Scripture because it is interpretation and not actually God's Word.

The "deep things" of God and "spiritual truths" are not additional special revelations but an application of God's Word in our lives (on a spiritual level).

[/QUOTE]

I will not respond to such false ideas anymore....
Readers enjoy these threads
Spiritual death has been "passed" from Adam

Does the Bible teach Spiritual Death?

 

[JonC]

"Because you cannot "see it" does not mean it is not there.

Actually, it does. This is how Scripture is objective and how we test doctrine against the standard of Scripture. Part of your difficulty is you treat doctrine as if it were scripture and are therefore unable to test scripture.

"My post does not say that you denied Adam had a human spirit.

I realize this. I already addressed this. I apologized to you and said I assumed that was what you meant and I should have asked.

This is where you made the false accusation:

Men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam.There was one point in time when the reality of Spiritual death entered the whole human race. You have denied this in times past. You are welcome to your ideas.

I realize that you may have simply done so out of ignorance. I realize that you may not have understood what I have previously posted about this topic, and I certainly get that you did not grasp what I believe because you have stated the opposite of my position.

I have NEVER denied that men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam. I have NEVER denied that there was a point in time when the reality of Spirital death entered the whole human race. Yet you (w/ @SovereignGrace and sadly @Dave G ), have decided to misrepresent my position and what I believe.

Why did you choose to make the false claim about what I believe? Was it malice or ignorance?

 

[Iconoclast]

The discussion was never about all in Adam...it was about Adam in the fall.
Again I will let the readers take a look...You deny Adam died spiritually. You try to redefine it as absence of life or whatever.[the flesh, etc.]
I have no desire to add to this, Quantrill and others are on it.

 

[JonC]

Moving past @Iconoclast 's misunderstanding of my position -

The OP is a good topic.

Christians typically accept that all have sinned in or in/with Adam, although there are a few important differences in interpretation.

We cannot say Adam was created with eternal life, but if we want to engage in a little philosophical exercise we can ask a hypothetical. What if Adam had not sinned. What kind of life would he have had?

If Adam had eternal life (or everlasting life) and lost it, then could we?

 

[JonC]

The discussion was never about all in Adam...it was about Adam in the fall.
Again I will let the readers take a look...You deny Adam died spiritually. You try to redefine it as absence of life or whatever.[the flesh, etc.]
I have no desire to add to this, Quantrill and others are on it.

No. By spiritually dead I mean physically alive but dead spiritually.

Look, @Iconoclast , it is clear you do not grasp my posts. That is fine, you don't have to.

But stop making false claims about what I believe. You say what you believe and I'll say what I believe.

 

[Dave G]

@Iconoclast and @JonC :
Gents,
It looks like you're talking past each other, at least on some things.

 

[Dave G]

If Adam had eternal life (or everlasting life) and lost it, then could we?

To me the OP hasn't asked a Scripturally sound question...
Eternal life, per John 3:36, John 5:24 and many others, cannot be lost by those who have it.

In addition, the author has been strangely silent throughout this entire exchange...
Almost as if he threw in a loaded question and stood back.

 

[Dave G]

What if Adam had not sinned. What kind of life would he have had?

I can say for sure that none of us would have ever needed a Saviour to deliver us from God's wrath,
Because He would not have had any disobedience to punish.

 

[Iconoclast]

@Iconoclast and @JonC :
Gents,
It looks like you're talking past each other, at least on some things.

Dave I do not think I misunderstood this ,do you?


JonCModerator said;

The idea Adam or anyone had spiritual life outside of Christ is unbiblical and based on faulty logic (arguing for a state of death to exist one must first have had life).

This says Adam had physical life, had a spirit that had no life???
So Adam sinned, and somehow spiritual death entered, but spiritual death is the absence of life??
Dave how do you read this?
Do you think I am misunderstanding this?
Enoch ...walked with God....did he have spiritual life?Heb.11

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Dave, do you think Enoch had no spiritual life, but pleased God anyhow?

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast and @JonC :
Gents,
It looks like you're talking past each other, at least on some things.

We are. @Iconoclast and I both believe man died in Adam, that spiritual death (I believe both spiritual and physical death) became a reality the moment Adam sinned.

He and I disagree on many areas, but both of us hold well established Christian positions. At one time I affirmed his views (Calvinism) except I did not adhere strongly to Covenant theology.

We just do not like one another and that is often enough to argue. A lot (probably most) of our disagreements involve methodologies.

 

[JonC]

I can say for sure that none of us would have ever needed a Saviour to deliver us from God's wrath,
Because He would not have had any disobedience to punish.

I agree in a way. In another way Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World, so in redemptive history there was always a need for a Savior (there was never an "if" because God is sovereign).

 

[JonC]

Dave I do not think I misunderstood this ,do you?


JonCModerator said;




This says Adam had physical life, had a spirit that had no life???
So Adam sinned, and somehow spiritual death entered, but spiritual death is the absence of life??
Dave how do you read this?
Do you think I am misunderstanding this?
Enoch ...walked with God....did he have spiritual life?Heb.11

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Dave, do you think Enoch had no spiritual life, but pleased God anyhow?

@Iconoclast and @Dave G ,

If you have any question about what I meant by my own words you do not have to assume or guess. I am here and I will tell you what I believe. No need to make assumptions.

I believe we are all born spiritually dead, even Enoch. We must be born again. I think God says as much when He says He will take out our heart of stone and give us a new heart; give us a new spirit; put His Spirit in us.

Mankind as a whole sinned in Adam. Adam's sin introduced a spiritual separation that did not exist prior to "the Fall". Even Enoch was subject to this spiritual separation and in need of a Savior.

Man's relationship with God was broken because of sin.

That point in time, when Adam sinned, death (both spiritual and physical) became a reality. That relationship between Adam and God was severed and Adam was cast out of God's presence. And Adam's physical death would be certain. Sin has a spiritual and physical aspect - it is not one or the other.

Scripture tells us that there are none who are righteous. Even Enoch fell short of the glory of God.

So my answer is that men (including Enoch) are born without spiritual life and are dependent on God to provide that life.

 

[Iconoclast]

Was Adam born with spiritual life before the fall?

I believe we are all born spiritually dead, even Enoch

This is not the issue.We are speaking of Adam prefall.
Are you saying he had a spirit that was not alive?

That point in time, when Adam sinned, death (both spiritual and physical) became a reality. That relationship between Adam and God was severed and Adam was cast out of God's presence. And Adam's physical death would be certain. Sin has a spiritual and physical aspect - it is not one or the other.

This vaguely worded statement does not get it done.In what exact way did spiritual death become a reality?

Did Adam have spiritual life, that died on that day?

In what exact way did it become a reality for ADAM?

How was the relationship between God and Adam severed?

What do you mean by cast out of God's presence?

Adams physical death would be certain...what died in that day as God told Him would happen?

Have you changed your view since Biblicist and Martin called you on this?

 

[Quantrill]

You are the one finding my photo attractive.

Vomit.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Ok, let's see if I can.

I have made the claim that it is wrong to elevate our understanding to the level of God's Word. You object tooth and nail.

Proverbs 3:5-6 tells us to trust in the Lord with all our heart and lean not on our own understanding and in all our ways submit to God and he will direct our way.

In Isaiah 55:8 God tells us that His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways.

That should be enough to prove it is wrong to elevate our words to the level of God's word and to add to Scripture.

Why do you reject the truth that it is wrong to add to God's Word? It seems you may be suggesting that the Bible is a man-made book, but Scripture itself affirms it is "God breathed" (it is God's Words, not man's words but God working through men). If men equate their understanding of Scripture to Scripture itself they are essentially putting themselves in place of God.

You seem to suggest that Scripture is subjective. The problem with this idea is you can have no truth because you become the determining factor of what to believe or what to add.

Instead Scripture is the Word of God, it is objective, immutable, and the standard by which our understanding and doctrine is measured.

You will not change my mind on that point.

Again, who is adding to the Word of God?

Where did I reject that it is wrong to add to the Word of God?

Who is trying to change your mind about Scripture being the Word of God?

You made the claim. Yet, you continue to crawfish.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill ,

I have defended my post. You defend yours.

My claim is it is wrong to add to scripture, that we cannot hold our understanding as if it is scripture but rather weigh our understanding against the Bible.

You have objected strongly to my position so answer a few questions:

When and why do you believe it is permissible to add to the Bible?

If you elevate doctrine to the level of scripture then against what will you test that doctrine?

If you view our words equal to God's Words, then how is that not placing ourselves in the place of God?

No, you haven't defended your post. You crawfish from your posts.

In post #(12) you said, in regards to what was being said:

"People need to refrain from playing God and simply observe and obey what God has written. Stop trying to answer sill questions that are not in Scripture and apply what is actually in the Bible to your lives."

I pointed out in post #(16) that all you're doing is placing your interpretation above everyone else's. In post #(18) I point you back to my post #(3) and ask you if I have reasoned from Scripture or am I adding to Scripture. You of course refuse to pontificate and exercise your god powers. Crawfish.

You accuse, but cannot support your accusation. Instead you finally say you just say these things out of the blue. See post #(42).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

To being the thread back on topic.

My answer is no, Adam was not created with eternal life as evidenced by his death.

God created Adam flesh (either human body, human soul, and human spirit or human soul, human body/ spirit).

So, you recognize God created man body, soul, and spirit. Correct?

You want to say 'human' body, soul, and spirit. What are you saying? Was the breath of God which gave life to Adam, human? (Gen. 2:7)

Quantrill

 

[SGO]

Agent 47's name in Latin means "lethal trade".

 

[JonC]

So, you recognize God created man body, soul, and spirit. Correct?

You want to say 'human' body, soul, and spirit. What are you saying? Was the breath of God which gave life to Adam, human? (Gen. 2:7)

Quantrill

This is actually a legitimate post.

I do hold a tripartite position.

Scripture also speaks of animals as having a spirit and a soul, of man and animals having the "same breath".

Good topic. You should start a thread.

 

[JonC]

Agent 47's name in Latin means "lethal trade".

Hitman...