1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Adam versus believers

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Oct 29, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 4 of 8
  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    "JonC,
    No you said I denied it...
    Iconoclast said: ↑
    My post does not say that you denied Adam had a human spirit.
    You claimed I said that, which I never have done.

    Looks like you did that, not me.


    [QUOTE]I believe (and have always believed) that men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam. It is wrong of you to even imply I denied this.
    [/QUOTE]
    That was not the point you denied and you know it, we were discussing Adam and the fall ...

    I will let the readers decide for themselves...the discussion was dealing with Adam and the fall , you tried to change it so we will let the readers look for themselves.

    I will let the readers decide...if they take the time, they will get an eyeful.


    [/QUOTE]

    I will not respond to such false ideas anymore....
    Readers enjoy these threads
    Spiritual death has been "passed" from Adam

    Does the Bible teach Spiritual Death?
     
    #61 Iconoclast, Nov 3, 2020
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually, it does. This is how Scripture is objective and how we test doctrine against the standard of Scripture. Part of your difficulty is you treat doctrine as if it were scripture and are therefore unable to test scripture.

    I realize this. I already addressed this. I apologized to you and said I assumed that was what you meant and I should have asked.

    This is where you made the false accusation:

    I realize that you may have simply done so out of ignorance. I realize that you may not have understood what I have previously posted about this topic, and I certainly get that you did not grasp what I believe because you have stated the opposite of my position.

    I have NEVER denied that men are born spiritually dead because all sinned in Adam. I have NEVER denied that there was a point in time when the reality of Spirital death entered the whole human race. Yet you (w/ @SovereignGrace and sadly @Dave G ), have decided to misrepresent my position and what I believe.

    Why did you choose to make the false claim about what I believe? Was it malice or ignorance?
     
    #62 JonC, Nov 3, 2020
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The discussion was never about all in Adam...it was about Adam in the fall.
    Again I will let the readers take a look...You deny Adam died spiritually. You try to redefine it as absence of life or whatever.[the flesh, etc.]
    I have no desire to add to this, Quantrill and others are on it.
     
    #63 Iconoclast, Nov 3, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Moving past @Iconoclast 's misunderstanding of my position -

    The OP is a good topic.

    Christians typically accept that all have sinned in or in/with Adam, although there are a few important differences in interpretation.

    We cannot say Adam was created with eternal life, but if we want to engage in a little philosophical exercise we can ask a hypothetical. What if Adam had not sinned. What kind of life would he have had?

    If Adam had eternal life (or everlasting life) and lost it, then could we?
     
    #64 JonC, Nov 3, 2020
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. By spiritually dead I mean physically alive but dead spiritually.

    Look, @Iconoclast , it is clear you do not grasp my posts. That is fine, you don't have to.

    But stop making false claims about what I believe. You say what you believe and I'll say what I believe.
     
    #65 JonC, Nov 3, 2020
  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Iconoclast and @JonC :
    Gents,
    It looks like you're talking past each other, at least on some things.
     
    #66 Dave G, Nov 3, 2020
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To me the OP hasn't asked a Scripturally sound question...
    Eternal life, per John 3:36, John 5:24 and many others, cannot be lost by those who have it.

    In addition, the author has been strangely silent throughout this entire exchange...
    Almost as if he threw in a loaded question and stood back. ;)
     
    #67 Dave G, Nov 3, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,980
    Likes Received:
    1,364
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I can say for sure that none of us would have ever needed a Saviour to deliver us from God's wrath,
    Because He would not have had any disobedience to punish.
     
    #68 Dave G, Nov 3, 2020
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian

    Dave I do not think I misunderstood this ,do you?

    [​IMG]
    JonCModerator said;




    This says Adam had physical life, had a spirit that had no life???
    So Adam sinned, and somehow spiritual death entered, but spiritual death is the absence of life??
    Dave how do you read this?
    Do you think I am misunderstanding this?
    Enoch ...walked with God....did he have spiritual life?Heb.11

    5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony,     that he pleased God.
    Dave, do you think Enoch had no spiritual life, but pleased God anyhow?
     
    #69 Iconoclast, Nov 3, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We are. @Iconoclast and I both believe man died in Adam, that spiritual death (I believe both spiritual and physical death) became a reality the moment Adam sinned.

    He and I disagree on many areas, but both of us hold well established Christian positions. At one time I affirmed his views (Calvinism) except I did not adhere strongly to Covenant theology.

    We just do not like one another and that is often enough to argue. A lot (probably most) of our disagreements involve methodologies.
     
    #70 JonC, Nov 3, 2020
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree in a way. In another way Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World, so in redemptive history there was always a need for a Savior (there was never an "if" because God is sovereign).
     
    #71 JonC, Nov 3, 2020
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Iconoclast and @Dave G ,

    If you have any question about what I meant by my own words you do not have to assume or guess. I am here and I will tell you what I believe. No need to make assumptions.

    I believe we are all born spiritually dead, even Enoch. We must be born again. I think God says as much when He says He will take out our heart of stone and give us a new heart; give us a new spirit; put His Spirit in us.

    Mankind as a whole sinned in Adam. Adam's sin introduced a spiritual separation that did not exist prior to "the Fall". Even Enoch was subject to this spiritual separation and in need of a Savior.

    Man's relationship with God was broken because of sin.

    That point in time, when Adam sinned, death (both spiritual and physical) became a reality. That relationship between Adam and God was severed and Adam was cast out of God's presence. And Adam's physical death would be certain. Sin has a spiritual and physical aspect - it is not one or the other.

    Scripture tells us that there are none who are righteous. Even Enoch fell short of the glory of God.

    So my answer is that men (including Enoch) are born without spiritual life and are dependent on God to provide that life.
     
    #72 JonC, Nov 3, 2020
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Was Adam born with spiritual life before the fall?

    This is not the issue.We are speaking of Adam prefall.
    Are you saying he had a spirit that was not alive?



    This vaguely worded statement does not get it done.In what exact way did spiritual death become a reality?

    Did Adam have spiritual life, that died on that day?

    In what exact way did it become a reality for ADAM?

    How was the relationship between God and Adam severed?

    What do you mean by cast out of God's presence?

    Adams physical death would be certain...what died in that day as God told Him would happen?

    Have you changed your view since Biblicist and Martin called you on this?
     
    #73 Iconoclast, Nov 3, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    104
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Vomit.

    Quantrill
     
    #74 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    104
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Again, who is adding to the Word of God?

    Where did I reject that it is wrong to add to the Word of God?

    Who is trying to change your mind about Scripture being the Word of God?

    You made the claim. Yet, you continue to crawfish.

    Quantrill
     
    #75 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  16. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    104
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    No, you haven't defended your post. You crawfish from your posts.

    In post #(12) you said, in regards to what was being said:

    "People need to refrain from playing God and simply observe and obey what God has written. Stop trying to answer sill questions that are not in Scripture and apply what is actually in the Bible to your lives."

    I pointed out in post #(16) that all you're doing is placing your interpretation above everyone else's. In post #(18) I point you back to my post #(3) and ask you if I have reasoned from Scripture or am I adding to Scripture. You of course refuse to pontificate and exercise your god powers. Crawfish.

    You accuse, but cannot support your accusation. Instead you finally say you just say these things out of the blue. See post #(42).

    Quantrill
     
    #76 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
  17. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    104
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    So, you recognize God created man body, soul, and spirit. Correct?

    You want to say 'human' body, soul, and spirit. What are you saying? Was the breath of God which gave life to Adam, human? (Gen. 2:7)

    Quantrill
     
    #77 Quantrill, Nov 4, 2020
  18. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    2,833
    Likes Received:
    533
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Agent 47's name in Latin means "lethal trade".
     
    #78 SGO, Nov 4, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is actually a legitimate post.

    I do hold a tripartite position.

    Scripture also speaks of animals as having a spirit and a soul, of man and animals having the "same breath".

    Good topic. You should start a thread.
     
    #79 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hitman...:)
     
    #80 JonC, Nov 4, 2020
    • Funny Funny x 1
Page 4 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...