When Churchianity fails you . . .

The problem you address with 'churchianity' is certainly true. And there is nothing wrong in recognizing a problem within Christianity and trying to solve it.

Some try and solve it by starting another local church that can be more like the New Testament Church. Others try and solve it by staying and fighting, in the Church, the doctrinal errors that have led to these problems. I think particularly of Martin Luther as one of those.

And, make no mistake, doctrinal error preceded the condition the Church is in. And that cannot be corrected by one who doesn't know the Scripture. You said in post #(15) that the Spirit teaches you the Scripture. And that is good. He teaches all the Christians the Scriptures. But we also rely on what the Spirit has taught Christians in the past. We don't elevate any doctrine above Scripture. But we seek to develop a doctrine that is Scriptural.

Which ever way one chooses, to leave or to stay in a church, you must understand that the problems will never completely go away. When Israel came out of Egypt a 'mixed multitude' came with them. When Jesus chose his disciples, Judas was among them. The home church will attract the attention of satan just as any other church. And he will send his people your way, holding your exact views, to begin destroying your work.

Quantrill

 

Spoken like a typical religious leader.

 

And who taught you that was the way? And who taught your teacher?

Jude 1

8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.


"My core belief system, that is unfortunately overlooked by mainline traditional Christianity, is that God has intended Mankind to cast aside self, to set aside independence, and to absolutely submit to the Creator God of this universe."

Do you see an accusation coming off on the rest? So someone mainline can't absolute submit to God?

Titus 3

8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. 9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.


I prefer a reformer than abandonment. Unification rather then divisiveness. The fact you had to do something about it and go out on your self kinda flies in the face of being against "independence". Stay where you are and let God handle it would have been more impressive. Be the living example and people will see the fruits of your way.

Matthew 5
14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

You might have come from the worst church ever......exactly where God wanted you and people needed you.

"Many Christians, (those seeking the depths of God), will experience a dark horror of the soul, a night, a desert, a wilderness, a crisis wherein they seem to lose their way, heaven is silent and peace is gone. An overcomer will definitely pass through this forsaken time but on the other side is an inner strength after the test."

Which is why I am saying this with all the love I can, You've failed this test. Have mercy on your Parents. You just tried your way of fixing it. Lets see you only rely on God now.

Its very common quest a person starts with we're right, everyone is wrong, we are wrong, everyone is wrong, everyone is right, we are all right.

You attend a church called BAPTISTBOARD too. We're all stubborn and thick headed how we going to learn if you run off home alone?

Spiritual says a lot of bad things about religious, Spiritual always claims to be superior, Never heard religious say bad things about spiritual it even often praised it, religious always remained pretty meek and religious was there when spiritual was a infant.

When you come full circle spiritual learns a deep appreciation, spiritual becomes more religious than religious.

 

An introduction to the Pilgrims Progress...

1. Wicket Gate - Salvation
2. Interpreters House - Sanctification
3. Porters House - Baptism in the Holy Spirit
4. Valleys - The valley of the shadow of death
5. Vanity Fair - Witnessing to this present world
6. Demas Silver Mines - The trap of material prosperity
7. The Delectable Mountains - The feeling one has arrived
8. The Enchanted Ground - The place everyone falls asleep

And continue with an introduction of the seven churches...

Ephesus - Messianic - The Apostle Peter was the Apostle to the Messianics.
Smyrna - Martyr - The Apostle Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Foxes has the persecutions as ten.
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Materialistic - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

I have noticed that the revivals of the Philadelphian church have basically come to an end. In this day and time there is a danger in getting trapped in a denomination that has long ago disappeared into the enchanted ground. I was listening to two sisters talk in an Assembly of God church and they said they heard that in the last days the people were going to have to, "Cut their own paths." And I knew it was meant for my ears to have heard that prophecy!

 

But if the "home church" is obedient to the Great Commission it will grow out of the house. What then? And if it is not obedient to the Great Commission, it is disobedient and thus sinning. Just saying.

For the record, the Baptist church I go to is vibrant, revivalistic, reaching out to the community in many ways, on fire for Christ, and a blessing in many ways. This week we will have a special live-streamed service for our veterans in the community, and will take gift baskets to many of them and honor them in the service. Any "home church" which simply enjoys the fellowship and does nothing for the lost world around it is not pleasing to God.

 

Has your house church seen many folks come to Christ? What are you doing to reach other people groups for Christ, such as the precious Japanese, who I spent 33 years preaching Christ to?

 

Leaving off my presuppositions, I agree with RevMitchell that you have not proven your point as regards Heb. 13:13. It is a basic and dangerous error to interpret without context. What in the context of this verse says "church" to you?

 

I realize I've posted three in a row now, so please forgive me for another I hope the OP author will answer them, but in the mean time, I have to share this.

Monday is always our "Testimony Chapel" at the Bible college where I teach, which is under the authority of a local church. (I am assuming that John Patterson opposes any Bible college under a church or not--his writings seems to indicate that, though I would welcome This morning we had some wonderful testimonies from our young people. One young man told of witnessing to a Muslim, and how it increased his faith in Christ. Three different young ladies told of how God is working in their lives, one in tears. A young man told of having prayer meetings with his evangelistic team for a certain house where young people meet for gambling and general carousing. They had no results for two weeks, but then one day two said they would go to church. They went to pick them up last night, and lo and behold eight wanted to come, so they had to go back and get a church van!

In my NT Greek class this morning we had a marvelous time, even though they are going to have a test on Wednesday. On our quiz, one made a C, one made a B, and all of the rest made A! In that class I have a young Burmese man who struggled but is now doing much better; three Latin Americans, a couple of missionary kids from Africa, and a young lady planning to go to India as a missionary, who is so talented I believe she will make a splendid Bible translator. (There are still many Indian languages needing the Bible.) There are several others also planning to be missionaries.

Last night we had the Lord's Supper. We always make it into a corporate prayer meeting. What an incredible blessing to pray with hundreds of other Christians. During the prayer times we sang several hymns, simply following whoever had been moved by the Spirit of God to start singing.

Now I ask you. Can a "home church" or "house church" or whatever it is provide all of these blessings? I think not.

 

I don't understand your comments here.

It may well be that the 'home church' is the product of the Great Commission.

You seem to brand everyone and everything through your eyes as a missionary. I understand it. Those who have the gift of evangelism, believe everyone should be an evangelist. Those who are teachers, think everyone should be teachers. etc. etc.

The 'home church' can be obedient to the Great Commission in attempting to establish a true Christian Church. From which can flow the truth of Scripture and fellowship with God and Christ. From which true missionaries are taught and sent.

You want to present baskets to veterans. So? Sounds like a socialistic gospel attempt to me. Do you wave the American flag also? That flag that represents abortion, and homosexuals, and transsexuals, etc. etc.

Do you sing 'battle hymn of the republic' at your church service?

Quantrill

 

Why not?

Quantrill

 

The Great Commission in Matthew 28 certainly supports the idea of a church being planted as a product of the Great Commission. But that is not what I asked. I asked what the OP author's particular church was doing to fulfill the Great Commission. Are they winning souls to Christ? Are they supporting worldwide missions? And I await the OP author to answer that.

No, I judge ministries of all kinds by their obedience to the Great Commission. "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). How is that ambiguous?

The Great Commission was the last command of Jesus Christ before His ascension. He repeated it five times in different wordings: Matt. 28:18-20, Mark 16:14-18, Luke 24:46-49, John 20:21-23, and Acts 1:7-8. Christ was thus passionate about us reaching the world for Him.

If you and your home church are doing the best you can to obey Christ's Great Commission, I have no quarrel with you. (To be clear, I do not believe nor teach that everyone should be an evangelist, but I do believe that everyone should be a witness for Christ--not the same thing.)

A home church is obedient to the Great Commission when it seeks to get the Gospel out and reach the world for Jesus Christ. I do not criticize home churches in general. In fact, I advised a young man in Japan whom I had discipled to start a home/house church, and he did so and is still there.

Our special outreach to veterans is designed to open opportunities to give them the Gospel. It has absolutely nothing to do with socialism, and I have no idea how you got that idea from the little I posted about it. Do you somehow think that giving someone a gift basket is socialism??? (I think you actually mean "social gospel" instead of "socialistic gospel." They are very different ideas.)

We have had numerous veterans trust Jesus Christ as Savior through this event, which is usually a banquet, but was changed this year because of the pandemic.

 

Great! Tell me how your home church is blessing you. But if you do not have a systematic way to train people to go out and reach the world for Christ, you will not have the blessings of the testimony chapel that I spoke of.

My point in that post was that if home/house churches remain small, there are blessings they cannot provide. But if they grow because they are winning souls to Christ, they will gradually be able to provide more and more blessings to their people. And they will grow out of their house, usually.

 

Answer my question first. Why not?

House churches that remain small doesn't mean they have no involvement with other house churches. And, who says a house church has to remain small?

Quantrill

 

To John of Japan.

You wrote:
"But if the "home church" is obedient to the Great Commission... " What is the great commission is? Never heard of that before. Is it some kind of new false doctrine, new tradition, or new aphorism of your church?

You wrote:
"For the record, the Baptist church I go to is vibrant, revivalistic, reaching out to the community in many ways, on fire for Christ, and a blessing in many ways."

Oh! Is it true Shangri-La?! Finally it is founded! For 40 years I was searching for such place and never found it. I visit countless Baptists and other churches and everywhere very much the same thing, shaking hands, smiles, collection of money, preaching, and a lot of songs and prayers. Vibrant? Revivalistic? Reaching to community?!! Even on fire for Christ!!! And of course abundance of blessings! How lucky you are to be in such a place John, you are almost in Heaven!

Every church Website claiming these things. I am sure that you also preach in the same way as you describing your church, you are true Baptist preacher.


You wrote:
" This week we will have a special live-streamed service for our veterans in the community, and will take gift baskets to many of them and honor them in the service. "

How nice! Gift baskets for the veterans! The last time I check, the veterans in need of health care, mental evaluation and appropriate treatments, physical and mental therapy, shelter, because many are homeless, they and their families also need food, help to find a job, and some other things as transportation and most of all spiritual and moral support.

Thank you sir for your "gift baskets," surely you make veterans happy when ever and solve all their problems. If your church is very small church, and I know that on average small church usually collect about $10K in a single week, you are very generous in your care for the veterans sir! GOD bless you and your generous church (with all my sarcasm).


You wrote:
" Any "home church" which simply enjoys the fellowship and does nothing for the lost world around it is not pleasing to God"

Do you ever been in the home church sir? And how you know that it does nothing? May be some does nothing, but surely not all! Are not the regular churches in the same way? Are they all serve the Lord, work for Him, obeying His Law and Statutes, and pleasing to Him with their Works of Faith?

It also would be nice to know how you and your church "pleasing" GOD? What you do for GOD beside giving you cheap gift baskets to the veterans?


You wrote:
"Has your house church seen many folks come to Christ? "

In house church most of the people already in Christ, and if someone new, non Christian visits home church, he or she is not pressured, but introduced to the Bible and its context, gently and carefully, with explanations of the passages and verses, straight to the business, without long monotonous prayers and endless songs, of which most newcomers are bored to death, and never came back. But again, not every home church is the same, it is all depends on who runs the show.


You wrote:
"What are you doing to reach other people groups for Christ, such as the precious Japanese, who I spent 33 years preaching Christ to?"

As every Christian suppose to do, on any occasional conversation with strangers, or in any social gathering, a Christian may reveal him/her self to a stranger or to a group of people as a believer in Christ, and during conversation present invitation to the group of Christians may follow. As you probably already know sir, it is almost impossible today to find a person, particularly in US, who never heard about Christ, unless it is infant.

You converting Japanese people to Christ in US, who are all speaks English, good for you and for them. Did you ever visit Japan and spoke to Japanese people in their native language in order to convert them to Christ? And what the major religion in Japan? Certainly nor Christian.

In this case, how you ask a small home church to reach other people, while yourself spent 33 years preaching in the same place, mostly for the same audience? Where is your own outreach for other groups of people?


Concerning to your answer to John W Patterson.
You wrote:
" Leaving off my presuppositions, I agree with RevMitchell that you have not proven your point as regards Heb. 13:13. It is a basic and dangerous error to interpret without context. What in the context of this verse says "church" to you?"

I do see that Hebrews 13.13 to do with the issue discussed. He reveal his point at the beginning of his post, there he wrote:

" I have never been to seminary nor taken a hermeneutics course. I am a disciple of Jesus and not of any man. I am sorry you don't get what I am talking about. Other readers here clearly do."

As far as I understand him, he trying to say that if main stream church cannot deliver what they need to deliver (spiritual growth and works of faith) then it is much better to leave such a place and look for alternative source of worship. It could be anything, home church, small groups, gathering in the name of Christ, and so on.

It is just like main stream media who delivering only propaganda and fake news, can be abandoned by viewers and change to alternative, more reliable sources of information.

There is nothing wrong to seek better place for worship f GOD and for better Christians, because no matter how small group is, if they are completely in Christ, the Christ will be among them.

Matthew 18.20
20."For, where two or three have gathered in My name there I am in their midst."


You wrote:
"Great! Tell me how your home church is blessing you. But if you do not have a systematic way to train people to go out and reach the world for Christ, you will not have the blessings of the testimony chapel that I spoke of.
My point in that post was that if home/house churches remain small, there are blessings they cannot provide. But if they grow because they are winning souls to Christ, they will gradually be able to provide more and more blessings to their people. And they will grow out of their house, usually."

You do not understand the concept of the small church sir. A small church is a getaway and escape from the churches like yours, in order not to be trained like a dogs in the doctrines, dogmas, and traditions of your church, made up out of thin air, but to be trained in love of GOD, faith, dedication, mercy, compassion, and in Works of Faith.

And if it is happen that the home church will grow too big, they can split on two or more small groups, in order not to become corrupt and derail from the path to GOD.

 

Actually I did, but apparently you did not get the point. I'll state it more plainly. A house church with only a few people does not have the resources to train large numbers of young people as in the church-located Bible college where I teach. Therefore they cannot have the wonderful testimony meeting that I described. Now if a house church has some kind of training program for young people to obey the Great Commission, they can have the same kind of blessings, only on a much smaller scale.

Does your house church train young people to obey the Great Commission? Have you sent out any missionaries, and do you support any missionaries?

I think it is great if house churches cooperate. When we started out as a house church in Yokohama many years ago, we cooperated with various other churches for camp, etc.

But then we grew because we obeyed the Lord and won some people to Christ. A house church should not remain small.

Thank you! That is exactly what I've been saying. If a house church obeys the Great Commission they will grow larger. Then the question is, what do they do to accommodate the larger meetings? They can find a rich person with a large room in the house, as some early churches did. Or, they can rent an office room or store front somewhere and graduate from being a house church.

Both of the churches I started in Japan began in our home. In Yokohama we lived in a very small apartment, as most Japanese do. When we could, we found an office space to meet. When I first baptized in Yokohama, I built my own baptistry in our home, and we baptized there. It was extremely crowded. Surely when a house church grows they will want to relocate out of the person's home.

 

The Great Commission is Christ's command to go into all the world and reach people for Him. It is basic Christianity, taught by Christ in Matt. 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20, and Acts 1. I just "Googled" it and got 4,280,000 results. It you do not obey the Great Commission, the command to get the Gospel to all nations, you are not an obedient Christian.

For the record, I'm not the pastor. And for the record, our revivalistic theology of the Christian life is Keswick. In the OP, the author mentioned Watchman Nee. His view of the Christian life was Keswick theology, and he spoke at Keswick meetings.

Since all you know about the church I go to is what I've said here, I see no reason for your sarcasm. You have no idea what we do except for what I've written.

I'm puzzled. Did you not read that I told a young man in Japan to start a house church? And both of the churches I started in Japan began as house churches. I have not expressed opposition to house churches in general, so you are barking up the wrong tree here. Surely you will agree that there are good and bad house churches.

But is your house church obeying the command of Christ, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15)?

I am fluent in Japanese, lived in Japan for 33 years, and saw many Japanese come to Christ.

How would you have the slightest clue as to what I did in Japan for 33 years? You are way off base. For the record, the churches I started in Japan reached out to various countries through the missionaries we supported. As for myself I've preached the Gospel in China, Bangladesh, Australia, and trained Bible translators in Africa. But I don't want to make this thread about myself, so can we get past that?

Heb. 13:13 is talking about leaving Judaism to believe in Christ, not in leaving one kind of Christianity to join another kind. That is very clear from the context. And the term "church" only occurs one time in Hebrews, and in that one time certainly does not refer to house churches or other local churches.

Have I criticized your choice of a house church to go to? No I have not.

This is a wonderful passage, and I love it, and claimed it many times while starting churches in Japan

Since you know almost nothing about the church I go to, and know nothing about my knowledge or ignorance of house churches, I'll just ignore this.

 

John W Patterson has not answered any of my posts for whatever reason, but I'd like to make a point here about Watchman Nee, a great Chinese Christian and evangelist. I have been making the point on this thread that house churches are generally good, but they must obey the Great Commission, Christ's command in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to reach the nations with His Gospel. Any house/home church (or any church whatsoever) which does not do this is disobedient to the Savior and is certainly not imitating Watchman Nee and his "Little Flock."

Watchman Nee, as I have said, was a Chinese evangelist. He was very burdened about reaching his people for Christ, and often gave the Gospel. The churches he led and the house churches of modern China reached out to see souls saved. Read his inspiring biography, Against the Tide, The Story of Watchman Nee, by Angus I. Kinnear. All through the book it tells of souls saved through Nee's witnessing and preaching: "He also made a list of the boys in his year and began systematically to pray for each one and to witness to them at every opportunity" (p. 44), "orderly groups through the streets inviting the villagers to their gospel preaching. Simon Meek affirms that Watchman was the planner and ringleader of these ventures." (p. 55), "many real conversions they had witnessed this very year" (p. 71), etc., etc.

John Patterson has yet to answer my posts, so I don't know what he believes about reaching the world. But if his house church is doing nothing to win souls to Christ and to reach out to other people groups in the world, it is not obeying the Great Commission, the last command of Christ.

 

The Great Commission is strictly Bible. It is not theology, it is not man's invention, it is not heresy. Judge for yourself; don't let me convince you. Here are the five statements of Jesus Christ commanding the Great Commission:

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen" (Matthew 28:18-20).

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15-16).

"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:46-49).

"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts of the Apostles 1:7-8).

Judge for yourself. Jesus commanded it. Therefore, for a church to disobey it is to be rebellious against Christ, whatever kind of church it is.

If your church wishes to participate in obeying the Great Commission, here is a wonderful opportunity: Home - Christian Radio International. This ministry reaches can reach over 4 billion for Christ. It reaches into many Muslim countries, having 3 radio stations in Iraq.