When Churchianity fails you . . .

[Seeker of the Source]

Contemplate and explain what this bible verse is about......NEW TESTAMENT:

JUDE 1...
...
the rebellion of Korah.
. . .

Oh great! Now you equate me with Jude 1 and Korah. What else can I say to get you to understand where I am coming from? Come on bro'. Lighten up.

What I am all about:
My basic background is as follows. I was saved in March 1974 reading the Gospel of Matthew all alone in my living room. I then joined an Independent, fundamental Baptist Church. I was asked by the pastor become a science teacher in the church school. I went to Tennessee Temple University in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I was then hired by the church to teach science in their private school. The Lord led me away from all that hyper legalism. Years later I discovered a house church gathering. I tried that for years but the gathering stopped meeting together for various reasons. I then returned to organized religion for many years but the Lord just would not let me be comfortable with all that way of being. My wife and I left organized religion. We found another house church gathering where we still gather under the headship of Jesus alone.

I have read many of the works of Watchman Nee, T. Austin-Sparks, Stephen Kaung, Lance Lambert, Gene Edwards and Frank Viola. They have inspired much of the eventual revelations I have had concerning the Church and the Kingdom of God. But beyond all those teachings, I still seek deeper truths and a unique way of looking at the bible. Every day brings new thoughts.

I believe that Jesus Christ is God the Creator, The Lord, and Savior of all Mankind. Individuals are saved by grace alone and nothing else is required but faith. He suffered and died as the God-Man but was raised in His new body from death. He lives forevermore as the exalted King of kings. I believe in an eternal life to come for the saved as well as a place of damnation and separation from God created for the unredeemed as well as the Devil and the fallen angels. The bible offers the truth of God as revealed to man by the Spirit of God. There will be an actual Kingdom of God on the future earth that will exist for a 1,000 years. Jesus will reign over this realm with His overcomers. I believe present-day Christianity as expressed by organized religion is not the ideal expression of the Body of Christ. There is a better way. Evolution is a lie and cannot explain the existence of the universe and the origin of life itself.

I am a Generic Christian.
Generic: not of any man-made Christian denomination
Christian: a believer in and disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ

If you still want to classify me as the slobs in Jude 1 or those of the Korah rebellion, then so be it. Only God knows my heart. Not you.

 

[Parashah]

Oh great! Now you equate me with Jude 1 and Korah. What else can I say to get you to understand where I am coming from? Come on bro'. Lighten up.

What I am all about:
My basic background is as follows. I was saved in March 1974 reading the Gospel of Matthew all alone in my living room. I then joined an Independent, fundamental Baptist Church. I was asked by the pastor become a science teacher in the church school. I went to Tennessee Temple University in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I was then hired by the church to teach science in their private school. The Lord led me away from all that hyper legalism. Years later I discovered a house church gathering. I tried that for years but the gathering stopped meeting together for various reasons. I then returned to organized religion for many years but the Lord just would not let me be comfortable with all that way of being. My wife and I left organized religion. We found another house church gathering where we still gather under the headship of Jesus alone.

I have read many of the works of Watchman Nee, T. Austin-Sparks, Stephen Kaung, Lance Lambert, Gene Edwards and Frank Viola. They have inspired much of the eventual revelations I have had concerning the Church and the Kingdom of God. But beyond all those teachings, I still seek deeper truths and a unique way of looking at the bible. Every day brings new thoughts.

I believe that Jesus Christ is God the Creator, The Lord, and Savior of all Mankind. Individuals are saved by grace alone and nothing else is required but faith. He suffered and died as the God-Man but was raised in His new body from death. He lives forevermore as the exalted King of kings. I believe in an eternal life to come for the saved as well as a place of damnation and separation from God created for the unredeemed as well as the Devil and the fallen angels. The bible offers the truth of God as revealed to man by the Spirit of God. There will be an actual Kingdom of God on the future earth that will exist for a 1,000 years. Jesus will reign over this realm with His overcomers. I believe present-day Christianity as expressed by organized religion is not the ideal expression of the Body of Christ. There is a better way. Evolution is a lie and cannot explain the existence of the universe and the origin of life itself.

I am a Generic Christian.
Generic: not of any man-made Christian denomination
Christian: a believer in and disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ

If you still want to classify me as the slobs in Jude 1 or those of the Korah rebellion, then so be it. Only God knows my heart. Not you.

Hi Seeker of the Source,

I haven't had time to read all the posts here so don't know if this has already been mentioned.

Dr. Bruce Milne's very good book Know the Truth discusses the Christian Churches as an organism versus the Christian Churches as an organisation. You may be confused between the two.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matthew 13:24-30 may help you here. I write as one who sees this pasage as addressing the situation in the Christian Churches where both genuine and false Christians fellowship side by side (both then and now) and not the world in general.

 

[Parashah]

Oh great! Now you equate me with Jude 1 and Korah. What else can I say to get you to understand where I am coming from? Come on bro'. Lighten up.

What I am all about:
My basic background is as follows. I was saved in March 1974 reading the Gospel of Matthew all alone in my living room. I then joined an Independent, fundamental Baptist Church. I was asked by the pastor become a science teacher in the church school. I went to Tennessee Temple University in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I was then hired by the church to teach science in their private school. The Lord led me away from all that hyper legalism. Years later I discovered a house church gathering. I tried that for years but the gathering stopped meeting together for various reasons. I then returned to organized religion for many years but the Lord just would not let me be comfortable with all that way of being. My wife and I left organized religion. We found another house church gathering where we still gather under the headship of Jesus alone.

I have read many of the works of Watchman Nee, T. Austin-Sparks, Stephen Kaung, Lance Lambert, Gene Edwards and Frank Viola. They have inspired much of the eventual revelations I have had concerning the Church and the Kingdom of God. But beyond all those teachings, I still seek deeper truths and a unique way of looking at the bible. Every day brings new thoughts.

I believe that Jesus Christ is God the Creator, The Lord, and Savior of all Mankind. Individuals are saved by grace alone and nothing else is required but faith. He suffered and died as the God-Man but was raised in His new body from death. He lives forevermore as the exalted King of kings. I believe in an eternal life to come for the saved as well as a place of damnation and separation from God created for the unredeemed as well as the Devil and the fallen angels. The bible offers the truth of God as revealed to man by the Spirit of God. There will be an actual Kingdom of God on the future earth that will exist for a 1,000 years. Jesus will reign over this realm with His overcomers. I believe present-day Christianity as expressed by organized religion is not the ideal expression of the Body of Christ. There is a better way. Evolution is a lie and cannot explain the existence of the universe and the origin of life itself.

I am a Generic Christian.
Generic: not of any man-made Christian denomination
Christian: a believer in and disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ

If you still want to classify me as the slobs in Jude 1 or those of the Korah rebellion, then so be it. Only God knows my heart. Not you.

I prefer the term Indepent Christian over Generic Christian but that is your choice.

By Indepent Christian I mean one who believes they are a Christian but doesn't see themselves as fitting in the three major divisions of Christianity:

The three major divisions of Christianity today are:
1) Roman Catholicism.
2) Orthodoxy (ie Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox etc) and,
3) The various Protestant denominations (ie Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal etc).

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Hi Seeker of the Source,
. . .
Dr. Bruce Milne's very good book Know the Truth discusses the Christian Churches as an organism versus the Christian Churches as an organisation. You may be confused between the two.
. . . .

The church (ekklesia) was never to be an organization, (a company really, with bills, earnings, building plans, employees and by-laws and so forth.) The ekklesia is a living, breathing, spiritual entity, an organism that exists in the heavenlies and in the physical realm simultaneously. She may or may not need a roof over her head at times but she never looks or functions anything like a company and she certainly is not best suited to such religious constraints that modern-day Christendom has attempted to put her in. And frankly, there is no confusion at work here. Unless you want to assert a revelation from God is confusion.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

I prefer the term Indepent Christian over Generic Christian but that is your choice.

By Indepent Christian I mean one who believes they are a Christian but doesn't see themselves as fitting in the three major divisions of Christianity:

The three major divisions of Christianity today are:
1) Roman Catholicism.
2) Orthodoxy (ie Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox etc) and,
3) The various Protestant denominations (ie Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal etc).

Independent works for me. Thanks.

 

[Parashah]

Independent works for me. Thanks.

All good. I encourage you to keep searching in your spiritual growth.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

All good. I encourage you to keep searching in your spiritual growth.

 

[Parashah]

The church (ekklesia) was never to be an organization, (a company really, with bills, earnings, building plans, employees and by-laws and so forth.) The ekklesia is a living, breathing, spiritual entity, an organism that exists in the heavenlies and in the physical realm simultaneously. She may or may not need a roof over her head at times but she never looks or functions anything like a company and she certainly is not best suited to such religious constraints that modern-day Christendom has attempted to put her in. And frankly, there is no confusion at work here. Unless you want to assert a revelation from God is confusion.
View attachment 4356

An Interesting comment.

Would need to reflect on it for awhile before replying.

 

[John of Japan]

Watchman Nee believed in soul-winning, in

I prefer the term Indepent Christian over Generic Christian but that is your choice.

By Indepent Christian I mean one who believes they are a Christian but doesn't see themselves as fitting in the three major divisions of Christianity:

The three major divisions of Christianity today are:
1) Roman Catholicism.
2) Orthodoxy (ie Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox etc) and,
3) The various Protestant denominations (ie Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal etc).

We Baptists in general do not consider ourselves to be Protestant. The Baptist movement developed outside of the Reformation.

 

[Parashah]

Watchman Nee believed in soul-winning, in

We Baptists in general do not consider ourselves to be Protestant. The Baptist movement developed outside of the Reformation.

Interesting.

I always thought they developed from the anna-baptists but will need to do some Googling on that.

 

[John of Japan]

Interesting.

I always thought they developed from the anna-baptists but will need to do some Googling on that.

That is one theory, but not held by Baptists in general. There is no direct historical connection between the Anabaptists and the English Baptists, who developed from the English Separatists. "The Baptists generally did not share the Anabaptists' effort to withdraw from the world, their extreme pacifism, their communal sharing of earthly goods, or their semi-Pelagian optimism about human nature" (The Baptist Heritage, by H. Leon McBeth, p. 53).

 

[John of Japan]

The church (ekklesia) was never to be an organization, (a company really, with bills, earnings, building plans, employees and by-laws and so forth.) The ekklesia is a living, breathing, spiritual entity, an organism that exists in the heavenlies and in the physical realm simultaneously. She may or may not need a roof over her head at times but she never looks or functions anything like a company and she certainly is not best suited to such religious constraints that modern-day Christendom has attempted to put her in. And frankly, there is no confusion at work here. Unless you want to assert a revelation from God is confusion.
View attachment 4356

The Greek word for "church" (ἐκκλησια, ekklesia) developed from the legislative body of a Greek city state, which was made up of all of the male citizens of a city. Therefore, there were membership requirements: male, citizen, of a certain age. The ekklesia is used that way in Acts 19:32, 39 ("assembly" in the KJV). The word ekklesia did not lose those meanings, common at the time of Christ, simply because God decided to use that word for the gatherings of His people. What you call the "organized church" is just that--believers organized in a Biblical way. God is not the author of confusion.

The church as an organization planned by God is apparent all through the NT by:
1. A systematic way to handle problems (Matt. 16, 18)
2. Rules for how to act in the assembly (1 Cor. 14).
3. Standards of behavior (Acts 15:20).
4. How to treat rich and poor people in the church (James ).
And so forth.

The church as "organism" can only be based on the Biblical teaching that it is the body of Christ. However, that is clearly a metaphor, not a literal teaching. Christ's physical body is in Heaven.

 

[John of Japan]

Here I am in the beautiful city of Asahikawa, Japan, doing street evangelism ala Watchman Nee.

In the days of Watchman Nee, this method of reaching the lost was quite common in all of Asia. Nee did it often, judging by his biography (already mentioned). Thus, it is quite ironic to me that someone who claims to follow Nee would be so incensed and offended that I said that to reach those around us and other nations for Christ is a direct command of Christ (which I proved), and to disobey a direct command of the Lord is sin. And the charge that telling someone that to disobey Christ is sin is a legalist, is ridiculous in the extreme.

So here it is: Anyone who claims to follow Watchman Nee, but does not seek to reach the world for Christ, clearly does not know Watchman Nee.

By the way, evangelism is never easy. I certainly understand those who shrink back from it. It takes time away from your comfortable chair, and you might get laughed at. You might have someone slam the door in your face. But of course, there in America you won't face death after 20 years in prison for your faith, like Watchman Nee did.

Missionaries and other foreigners in China during the time of Nee (and even today in Guangdong Province) were called gweilo (Chinese: 鬼佬), usually translated as "foreign devil." In Japan, we were called gaijin (外人), literally meaning "outside person." We never did fit in, we were looked at strangely, we were laughed at, we were ignored. That's tough, folks! But we were obeying the last command of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is an awful thing to disobey Him when He saved you.

A full time missionary sacrifices much for the cause of Jesus Christ. I am reminded of the hymn, "Must I be carried to the skies in flowery beds of ease, while others fought to win the prize, and sailed through bloody seas?" If your house church or any other kind of church refuses to reach out to win people to Christ, then go ahead. Sit back in your easy chair. Enjoy your Christianity. But certainly, do not sacrifice. Never give money you don't have to the missionary cause. Don't give tracts that tell about Jesus to anyone--they might get offended, or think you are strange. Never, ever, visit a mission field, because that would cost the money you want to spend on a new car. Plus, you might catch some strange disease, like the malaria I know several missionaries have had. But then you can still pat yourself on the back and say, yes, I am a good Christian. And you can then call anyone you disagree with a legalist.

 

[John of Japan]

Now, house/home churches do evangelism, that is true. You don't have to be a disobedient Christian to go to or have a house/home church.

Here is a good article on that: Leading Home Church Evangelism

I could wish that the author presented the Gospel better, but it is a start. (He does not mention either the death or the resurrection of Christ, which are essential elements. See 1 Cor. 15.)

 

[Revmitchell]

Good ole viola. Boy that ship sailed long ago.

 

[John of Japan]

Good ole viola. Boy that ship sailed long ago.

I just checked out his website. Saw nothing about reaching the lost for Christ or preaching the Gospel to the world.

 

[Parashah]

That is one theory, but not held by Baptists in general. There is no direct historical connection between the Anabaptists and the English Baptists, who developed from the English Separatists. "The Baptists generally did not share the Anabaptists' effort to withdraw from the world, their extreme pacifism, their communal sharing of earthly goods, or their semi-Pelagian optimism about human nature" (The Baptist Heritage, by H. Leon McBeth, p. 53).

Thx.

That is interesting.

 

[utilyan]

Oh great! Now you equate me with Jude 1 and Korah. What else can I say to get you to understand where I am coming from? Come on bro'. Lighten up.

What I am all about:
My basic background is as follows. I was saved in March 1974 reading the Gospel of Matthew all alone in my living room. I then joined an Independent, fundamental Baptist Church. I was asked by the pastor become a science teacher in the church school. I went to Tennessee Temple University in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I was then hired by the church to teach science in their private school. The Lord led me away from all that hyper legalism. Years later I discovered a house church gathering. I tried that for years but the gathering stopped meeting together for various reasons. I then returned to organized religion for many years but the Lord just would not let me be comfortable with all that way of being. My wife and I left organized religion. We found another house church gathering where we still gather under the headship of Jesus alone.

I have read many of the works of Watchman Nee, T. Austin-Sparks, Stephen Kaung, Lance Lambert, Gene Edwards and Frank Viola. They have inspired much of the eventual revelations I have had concerning the Church and the Kingdom of God. But beyond all those teachings, I still seek deeper truths and a unique way of looking at the bible. Every day brings new thoughts.

I believe that Jesus Christ is God the Creator, The Lord, and Savior of all Mankind. Individuals are saved by grace alone and nothing else is required but faith. He suffered and died as the God-Man but was raised in His new body from death. He lives forevermore as the exalted King of kings. I believe in an eternal life to come for the saved as well as a place of damnation and separation from God created for the unredeemed as well as the Devil and the fallen angels. The bible offers the truth of God as revealed to man by the Spirit of God. There will be an actual Kingdom of God on the future earth that will exist for a 1,000 years. Jesus will reign over this realm with His overcomers. I believe present-day Christianity as expressed by organized religion is not the ideal expression of the Body of Christ. There is a better way. Evolution is a lie and cannot explain the existence of the universe and the origin of life itself.

I am a Generic Christian.
Generic: not of any man-made Christian denomination
Christian: a believer in and disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ

If you still want to classify me as the slobs in Jude 1 or those of the Korah rebellion, then so be it. Only God knows my heart. Not you.

Excuse me BRO, but you started this thread accusing us of worshipping idols, and bringing it to a debate board....

You expected a pat on the back?

Instead of whining about peoples character, Tell us how YOUR complaint about clergy is not like Korah's complaint.


1 timothy 4

14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

1 timothy 5

22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

These things bestowed by the priesthood how do you receive them without any link?


"Generic: not of any man-made Christian denomination"

You've made one yourself. The Pattersonites.

You even slapped down a creed without knowing it.

 

[Revmitchell]

I just checked out his website. Saw nothing about reaching the lost for Christ or preaching the Gospel to the world.

Yep, looked into it years back when his book came out and the house church movement was hot. It has fizzled since. It is cult like in that if you dont do it their way your a heathen. They call bad mouth pastors and church leaders. They reject discipleship as you have seen here in this thread. Many of them are very full of themselves as we have seen here as well.

 

[Parashah]

Th

That is one theory, but not held by Baptists in general. There is no direct historical connection between the Anabaptists and the English Baptists, who developed from the English Separatists. "The Baptists generally did not share the Anabaptists' effort to withdraw from the world, their extreme pacifism, their communal sharing of earthly goods, or their semi-Pelagian optimism about human nature" (The Baptist Heritage, by H. Leon McBeth, p. 53).

Thx for that.

I've forgotten a lot of my Church History studies but that rings some bells. Will look into The Baptist Heritage, by H. Leon McBeth when time permits.

Stay Strong in Christ.