When Churchianity fails you . . .

[Seeker of the Source]

And who taught you that was the way?
When you come full circle spiritual learns a deep appreciation, spiritual becomes more religious than religious.

Hey, that could be a great guru kinda quote or even a mantra.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

John W Patterson has not answered any of my posts for whatever reason, but I'd like to make a point here about Watchman Nee, a great Chinese Christian and evangelist. I have been making the point on this thread that house churches are generally good, but they must obey the Great Commission, Christ's command in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to reach the nations with His Gospel. Any house/home church (or any church whatsoever) which does not do this is disobedient to the Savior and is certainly not imitating Watchman Nee and his "Little Flock."
...

John Patterson has yet to answer my posts, so I don't know what he believes about reaching the world. But if his house church is doing nothing to win souls to Christ and to reach out to other people groups in the world, it is not obeying the Great Commission, the last command of Christ.

Our home church is open to all. Our lives individually are a testimony to everyone we meet.

Jesus said "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The word "go" in the original language is NOT a command nor a commission. It actually is a statement saying more correctly, "you will go". The Spirit will lead us naturally into spreading the Gospel. Some in their own neighborhoods and some off to foreign lands. It is not a given, not a written directive, not a command. It is breath of the Spirit into us and out of us in each believer's special way of sharing God's love and His Gospel.

As far as my not replying to your posts, The Baptist Board very rarely emails me to know there is a reply to my posts. I actually do have a life beyond this place -- and it is not all about being on the Baptist Board.

 

[John of Japan]

Our home church is open to all. Our lives individually are a testimony to everyone we meet.

Jesus said "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The word "go" in the original language is NOT a command nor a commission. It actually is a statement saying more correctly, "you will go". The Spirit will lead us naturally into spreading the Gospel. Some in their own neighborhoods and some off to foreign lands. It is not a given, not a written directive, not a command. It is breath of the Spirit into us and out of us in each believer's special way of sharing God's love and His Gospel.

Actually, the word "Go" in the original language is a Greek participle, πορευθεντες (poreuthentes), and can be translated "As you go," so you are right thus far. (I teach Greek.) However, the next word is "therefore," then comes the μαθητευσατε (matheteusate), "make disciples," which is in the imperative mood, and is thus a command. Again, most commentators will say that "Go" carries the imperative sense since it is followed by an imperative, though it is only a participle. Thus, we are commanded to witness for Christ and make disciples. Any house church (or other church) which does not obey the Great Commission and seek to win souls to Christ and reach out to other nations is sinning.

The same thing is true of Mark 16:15 where the "Go" is a participle, and "preach is an aorist imperative. In the Great Commmission in Luke 24, "Tarry" is in the aorist imperative, so we are commanded to pray and wait on God for His power. In John 20:22, "Receive" is imperative.

Witnessing for Christ and reaching the nations for Christ is not a casual preference, it is the direct command of our Lord Jesus Christ. So, does your house church support world evangelism? Have you ever been to another country to preach the Gospel? Our organized church (with a building) which you so disdain, has sent out missionaries to many countries, supports many more missionaries, and has a full time missions (assistant) pastor who travels to many different countries to encourage evangelism and church planting movements. Our pastor has been to many countries preaching the Gospel, and still visits various countries to preach. I have had many international students in my classes, who go back to their own countries after they graduate to reach their own countrymen.

Yet you despise us, judging from your OP. I'm pretty sure the Lord Jesus Christ does not.

As far as my not replying to your posts, The Baptist Board very rarely emails me to know there is a reply to my posts. I actually do have a life beyond this place -- and it is not all about being on the Baptist Board.

Answer my posts or not, either way is fine. I'm not demanding answers.

 

[John of Japan]

Do you have a point here? If you are trying to intimate that I despise house churches, you are not paying attention. I started churches in my home twice in Japan, and I have advised a man I discipled in Japan to start one. I don't even despise house churches that sin by not reaching the lost for Christ. I would rebuke them for their disobedience, but if they love Jesus I'm on their side.

But you really should visit a mission field. If you know a missionary somewhere, visit them, take some delicacies or other items that they cannot get where they are, and be a blessing. Go out on evangelism with them. Meet the people they minister to. You will be incredibly blessed as you seek to bless them. It will change your life!

Watchman Nee would love it if you did this. (See my post #37.)

 

[Seeker of the Source]

. . . Any house church (or other church) which does not obey the Great Commission and seek to win souls to Christ and reach out to other nations is sinning. . . .

Yet you despise us, judging from your OP. . . . . .

I will soon address your statements.

First off some history: I come from an Independent, Fundamental Baptist background. As staff there, I went on soul-winning visitations twice weekly among other duties, teaching, choir, JV soccer coach and so on ad nauseum. Yes, I supported foreign missionaries in my tithe. I even attended soul-winning seminars. I was properly into it.

In this religious environment so rife with legalism, I soon saw the inherent results of being judgemental. That guy's, (me), hair is getting too long, his boot heels are too high, he has too much tint in his prescription glasses and it is rumored he listens to popular secular music. Oh my! Yes, I was such a rebel. Not only that, I learned to be legalistic and was soon judging sinners everywhere and carnal Christians too. Glory to God He delivered from all that decades ago!

So now you come along and judge my house church and assert we are "sinning" if we don't behave according to your requirements. No thanks, I don't need such obvious legalism and self-righteous beam-in-the eye visions.

Lastly, I don't "despise" anyone in your flock or any other mainline religion. God will sort all that out later.

I envisage the day when the Lord will return and say, "My oh my! Look at all these fine churches buildings and cathedrals. Nice gyms too. And these really are nice asphalt parking lots! My Millennial Kingdom can so use all of these. By the way, did you have any money left over to take care of the orphans and widows? Did you avoid the error of dividing my flock into clergy and laity? You didn't. Why not? etc etc etc"

God is not pleased with what men have done to His original idea of pure religion and His plan for the ekklesia.

 

[Alofa Atu]

I am an ex-Baptist, now a Generic Christian. I am not following some cult leader like Charles Taze Russell. Nor am I into any man's leadership.

Ok, fair 'nough. First time meeting another out side of those previous circles who uses the term, which I allow for.

What would you like to discuss in this thread particularly? Leadership? Have you studied what scripture (KJB) says in regards leadership within the ekklesia (εκκλησια G1577)?

 

[utilyan]

I will soon address your statements.

First off some history: I come from an Independent, Fundamental Baptist background. As staff there, I went on soul-winning visitations twice weekly among other duties, teaching, choir, JV soccer coach and so on ad nauseum. Yes, I supported foreign missionaries in my tithe. I even attended soul-winning seminars. I was properly into it.

In this religious environment so rife with legalism, I soon saw the inherent results of being judgemental. That guy's, (me), hair is getting too long, his boot heels are too high, he has too much tint in his prescription glasses and it is rumored he listens to popular secular music. Oh my! Yes, I was such a rebel. Not only that, I learned to be legalistic and was soon judging sinners everywhere and carnal Christians too. Glory to God He delivered from all that decades ago!

So now you come along and judge my house church and assert we are "sinning" if we don't behave according to your requirements. No thanks, I don't need such obvious legalism and self-righteous beam-in-the eye visions.

Lastly, I don't "despise" anyone in your flock or any other mainline religion. God will sort all that out later.

I envisage the day when the Lord will return and say, "My oh my! Look at all these fine churches buildings and cathedrals. Nice gyms too. And these really are nice asphalt parking lots! My Millennial Kingdom can so use all of these. By the way, did you have any money left over to take care of the orphans and widows? Did you avoid the error of dividing my flock into clergy and laity? You didn't. Why not? etc etc etc"

God is not pleased with what men have done to His original idea of pure religion and His plan for the ekklesia.

View attachment 4346

John I'm not a Baptist, I'm Catholic and disagree with few of Baptist teachings but I don't remember any Baptist teaching that says to BE Judgmental.

A good indication your in the right church is precisely might be packed with judgmental folks, even hypocrites and thieves. Make sure you divide the teachings from the people.

Think about it.... the irony of judgement-talism, They were judgmental towards you and you reflect it back , YOURS has got so bad that you've judge that group not worth sticking around.

"As staff there, I went on soul-winning visitations twice weekly among other duties, teaching, choir, JV soccer coach and so on ad nauseum"

1 corinthians 13
. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Be careful with that word "ad nauseum". Because a good Saint might call those things REWARDS rather than chores and obligations.

You are still in a great battle of "Judgmental". Every single problem you ever had in life involves blaming, fault-finding, finger-pointing, judgmental, criticism. There's a reason they call the Devil The ACCUSER. Test out going one day without blaming.

"God is not pleased with what men have done to His original idea of pure religion and His plan for the ekklesia."

Suppose you came back with God on your side? who can stop you?

Suppose man has NOT frustrated his original idea at all? Suppose his pure religion and church is doing just fine?

What if God pleaded for you to have mercy on those churches who first held your hand?

The funny thing about faith and sole reliance on God is it may involve faith and reliance on God.

 

[John of Japan]

Looks like I hit a nerve here.

I will soon address your statements.

First off some history: I come from an Independent, Fundamental Baptist background. As staff there, I went on soul-winning visitations twice weekly among other duties, teaching, choir, JV soccer coach and so on ad nauseum. Yes, I supported foreign missionaries in my tithe. I even attended soul-winning seminars. I was properly into it.

In this religious environment so rife with legalism, I soon saw the inherent results of being judgemental. That guy's, (me), hair is getting too long, his boot heels are too high, he has too much tint in his prescription glasses and it is rumored he listens to popular secular music. Oh my! Yes, I was such a rebel. Not only that, I learned to be legalistic and was soon judging sinners everywhere and carnal Christians too. Glory to God He delivered from all that decades ago!

1. Soul-winning: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.
2. Teaching, choir, soccer coach: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.
3. Supporting missions: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.
4. Attending seminars: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.
5. Short hair, low boot heels, no listening to popular music, etc.: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.

So now you come along and judge my house church and assert we are "sinning" if we don't behave according to your requirements. No thanks, I don't need such obvious legalism and self-righteous beam-in-the eye visions.

Actually, I really have not judged you. First of all, the only requirement I have listed is obeying the Great Commission. Now, I don't know what your house church does about that or doesn't do. You have not told me. However, since you object so strongly to simple obedience of the Great Commission, I suspect that you do nothing.

If simple obedience to Christ's command is legalism, let's not love God and our neighbor. That's His command, also. Let's not bother about worshipping idols or not. That's just a command of the Lord after all--it's legalism to insist on obeying it. And when He tells us not to commit adultery, even in our heart, that's okay. If we insist on that, well, it's legalism.

I told you clearly that the Great Commission is an imperative in the Greek, when you said it was not. Do you think that this command of Christ is optional? If not, what is your house church doing about it?

Lastly, I don't "despise" anyone in your flock or any other mainline religion. God will sort all that out later.

Glad to hear this. If true, then maybe you should tone down your rhetoric. You jump on me as being a legalist simply because I advocate obeying the last command of Christ. But only God knows the heart.

Legalism is a heart matter, not a matter of outward living. You don't know the heart of anyone at that independent Baptist church you left, and you don't know my heart. If you think you know the heart of anyone but yourself, then you have not divested yourself of your former judgmentalism

I envisage the day when the Lord will return and say, "My oh my! Look at all these fine churches buildings and cathedrals. Nice gyms too. And these really are nice asphalt parking lots! My Millennial Kingdom can so use all of these.

Christ is not interested in the slightest about these things. He does not judge us on the basis of whether or not we have buildings, gyms, or anything physical. There are no Scriptures that even hint that He cares about those physical things. He said, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20-21).

By the way, did you have any money left over to take care of the orphans and widows? Did you avoid the error of dividing my flock into clergy and laity? You didn't. Why not? etc etc etc"

But He won't ask, "Did you proclaim me to the lost and dying who are headed for Hell, as I commanded you to?" Really?

God is not pleased with what men have done to His original idea of pure religion and His plan for the ekklesia.

God's plan for the ekklesia is very clear in Scripture. It is to glorify God through His beloved Son Christ: "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21). Now, if you are not proclaiming Christ to the lost and dying around you, how are you glorifying Jesus much?

The best way in the world to glorify God through Christ is to tell others about Him. If you are married, do you brag on your wife? If you have children, do you brag on them? Then why not brag on Christ, who I trust is your Best Friend?

Tell you what, if you truly think that witnessing for Christ and obeying the Great Commission to get the Gospel of Christ to the whole world is legalism, here is what you should do. Cut the whole book of Acts out of your Bible, except for that one passage about meeting the needs of widows in Acts 6:1-6. Then you won't have to imitate Paul and Peter and the others who worked so hard and suffered so much to get the Gospel out all through the book of Acts--not to mention Christ, who "came into the world to save sinners" (1 Tim. 1:15), not to feed orphans and widows, though that is the right thing to do.

 

[John of Japan]

Just a word about the tithe here. Bro. Patterson has mentioned it once or twice. He may be surprised to know that I agree with him that theologically the tithe is an Old Testament institution. It is not commanded in the NT, though Christ does speak favorably about it (Matt. 23:23). My own grandfather, a very influential fundamentalist evangelist and theologian, taught that the NT does not teach storehouse tithing. However, here is what people who preach the tithe (and those who oppose it) often miss: in this dispensation, God does not just ask 10%, He demands everything.

Christ did not say, "Take up just 10% of your cross and follow me just 10% of the time, and you only have to give me 10% of your money." He said, "Take up your cross and follow me." That means total and complete dedication, even unto death. My son preached in our chapel this morning and he said it well. If we put up anything else next to God as "I need this..." or "God and this," we are idolators. And this brilliant young man has given everything to Christ, literally. He lives very frugally in a one room apartment (is not yet married), though he has two master's degrees and a PhD. His car is broken down and he won't fix it because of the cost, so right now he often walks several miles to and from work. (We pick him up in the mornings.) However, he recently received $3000 for writing a digital commentary for Logos, and gave it all away to missionaries--all of it!!

It's pretty easy just to sit in a pew (or a chair, if it is a house church), and never do anything and never give anything. Bro. Patterson is right in saying that all believers should be serving Christ, not just a full time clergy. In fact, it is the stated task of the NT preacher to train the believers to serve Christ, "the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).

 

[Seeker of the Source]

. . . What would you like to discuss in this thread particularly? Leadership? Have you studied what scripture (KJB) says in regards leadership within the ekklesia (εκκλησια G1577)?

First off, the idea of clergy versus laity is for the Old Testament, Levites and the people, etc. old news . . . After Christ came that earlier set up given to Moses was all done away with. Sadly, well-meaning religious men re-instituted the idea of clergy vs laity. Still, there is not to be pastors, ministers, priests, etc, etc and then the people.

God naturally raises up men, (plurality), as shepherds over the flock, not to be in charge but to watch over the flock. They "look over" the situation, monitor things, moderate, and such and yes, that is my view about leadership.

An example: I have visited the wonderful Richmond Fellowship in VA, USA, where Stephen Kaung (close friend to Watchman Nee and translator of Nee's writings and such), and several men there have duties as "elders" there but no one man is in charge -- not even that dear, (100+ years old), saint, Stephen Kaung is considered the leader. He would never accept such! And everything works out fine that way.

It's how our home church functions as well. Last time I was in a similar fellowship, the "elder" brothers decided we needed leadership and they invited a well-known man to come and meet with us. He arrived and took total control. It was an awful experience and well over half of the saints left the fellowship. God spoke spoke to me in a dream and I left that next Sunday after speaking to "the man" and the remaining saints.

Leadership exerting control or "lording over" a gathering never works out like God intended. He didn't want Israel to have a king, He himself wanted to be their King. But men just refuse to let the Spirit of God be their only guide. And thus a religious deadening comes in among us as we warm the pew.

Here is a ballad about this issue featured on YouTube:

 

[John of Japan]

Brother Patterson, are you knowledgeable about the Keswick theology that Nee embraced? That is what was taught growing up and what we teach here.

Again, for the record, Watchman Nee was on fire for Christ and the winning of souls to Him from the time he was born again. His biographer wrote about Nee the high school student, "Not content with witnessing in the school, a handful of these high-school boys began to carry the gospel out into the town, making use of Sundays and fesstivals and the frequent student strikes as occasions for this. They procured a loud and resonant gong, and with it went singing through the streets, proclaiming to all who would pause an listen the good news of a living Saviour" (Against the Tide, by Angus Kinnear, p. 45). I would love to see a photo here on the BB of you and your little flock out street witnessing like Watchman Nee!

Here is a photo of me in Japan with my good buddy Usuki, a yakuza gang leader and drug pusher who trusted Christ as Savior. I met him while out on street evangelism, and did Bible studies with him for months until Christ gloriously saved him!

 

[John of Japan]

This is Ushiro, the enforcer of the gang, who also trusted Christ as Savior. Looks scary, huh?

 

[Alofa Atu]

First off, the idea of clergy versus laity is for the Old Testament, Levites and the people, etc. old news . . . After Christ came that earlier set up given to Moses was all done away with. Sadly, well-meaning religious men re-instituted the idea of clergy vs laity. Still, there is not to be pastors, ministers, priests, etc, etc and then the people.

I didn't say anything about 'clergy' vs 'laity'. I asked if you had studied about "Leadership" in scripture.

It seems you are stuck on a confusion, that only exists in your experience or mind, that is not actually present as a functional role in scripture.

Do you accept the 'offices'/positions, even the order, that God gives in the ekklesia? For instance, Ephesians 4:11, as seen working in Acts 15, &c?

 

[Alofa Atu]

This is Ushiro, the enforcer of the gang, who also trusted Christ as Savior. Looks scary, huh?

Yeah, the guy in the tie is absolutely frightening! Ties are the scariest thing ever! Reminds me of a serpent around my neck, choking out my life, and they even look shiny and have what appear to be patterns, like most snakes. Scary, scary, scary. The Asian guy, looks rather tame, compared to that tie.

 

[John of Japan]

Yeah, the guy in the tie is absolutely frightening! Ties are the scariest thing ever! Reminds me of a serpent around my neck, choking out my life, and they even look shiny and have what appear to be patterns, like most snakes. Scary, scary, scary. The Asian guy, looks rather tame, compared to that tie.

Yikes! Yeah, the guy in the tie is awful! And he doesn't even like ties!

 

[SGO]

Blest be the tie that binds?

 

[John of Japan]

Blest be the tie that binds?

Ouch! The tie that chokes--they all do.

 

[John of Japan]

Just got back with the wife from delivering two special gift baskets to veterans. Both were invited to watch our livestream, and thus hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. One was Russ, an old friend. The other turned out to have Covid, but I gave him the basket anyway. So, in a small way I hazarded my life for the cause of Jesus Christ. But not nearly like the great Chinese evangelist, Watchman Nee, who spent years in a Communist prison for the cause of Christ, dying there--one of my heroes of the faith.

It will be great to meet men and women like him in Heaven. Try reading China's Book of Martyrs, by Paul Hattaway. We risk so little for Christ in America.

 

[utilyan]

First off, the idea of clergy versus laity is for the Old Testament, Levites and the people, etc. old news . . . After Christ came that earlier set up given to Moses was all done away with. Sadly, well-meaning religious men re-instituted the idea of clergy vs laity. Still, there is not to be pastors, ministers, priests, etc, etc and then the people.

God naturally raises up men, (plurality), as shepherds over the flock, not to be in charge but to watch over the flock. They "look over" the situation, monitor things, moderate, and such and yes, that is my view about leadership.

An example: I have visited the wonderful Richmond Fellowship in VA, USA, where Stephen Kaung (close friend to Watchman Nee and translator of Nee's writings and such), and several men there have duties as "elders" there but no one man is in charge -- not even that dear, (100+ years old), saint, Stephen Kaung is considered the leader. He would never accept such! And everything works out fine that way.

It's how our home church functions as well. Last time I was in a similar fellowship, the "elder" brothers decided we needed leadership and they invited a well-known man to come and meet with us. He arrived and took total control. It was an awful experience and well over half of the saints left the fellowship. God spoke spoke to me in a dream and I left that next Sunday after speaking to "the man" and the remaining saints.

Leadership exerting control or "lording over" a gathering never works out like God intended. He didn't want Israel to have a king, He himself wanted to be their King. But men just refuse to let the Spirit of God be their only guide. And thus a religious deadening comes in among us as we warm the pew.

Here is a ballad about this issue featured on YouTube:

Contemplate and explain what this bible verse is about......NEW TESTAMENT:

JUDE 1

8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.


I'd like to particularly emphasize Rebellion of Korah ---> 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.


You can read the whole story of Korah in NUMBERS 16.

Their objection is exactly your objection. --> "Still, there is not to be pastors, ministers, priests, etc, etc and then the people."

Numbers 16
3They assembled together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone far enough, for all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is in their midst; so why do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?”

They claimed equal in priestly duties the same idea that clergy was unnecessary.

Likewise there is a passing down ordination of laying on hands

1 timothy 4

14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

1 timothy 5

22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

These things bestowed by the priesthood how do you receive them without any link?

See I can't as a new Christian and born again bestow these things on myself.

There is a clergy and they do have some authority. That doesn't mean you may be forced against your good conscience since that is the higher authority the voice of God.

You can't just start a NEW FRESH CHURCH/RELIGION. These things are passed down


Listen to yourself for a moment:
"I still don't believe the writers of what is now accepted as the New Testament could ever imagine how the believing ekklesia, of all the past centuries and now today, still follow letter by letter what was written many millennia ago. They would be shocked. They would wonder why haven't the writings of believers down through the ages not been as respected as what we wrote? Why do you "worship" our writings so? Doesn't God still speak the same way today? Why haven't you taken the time to look into the God-inspired writings down through all the ages? Why have you closed the bible up and canonized it? Who decided these 66 books were ALL God has to say? You have unknowingly made the bible a thing of worship, an idol and a fetish! Wake up to the eternal NOW of what God is saying to the ekklesia."


Who decided these 66 books were ALL God has to say? or better Who decided these 66 books were things God said at all?

Imagine we both were new, hey lets decide to be Christian. How do you even know a thing about it? Look at these guys over here with their crazy rituals, or these other ones with judgmental leaders. Oh all these folks are crazy but hold on look at that book they parade around lets grab that thing.

No one in their right mind from the outside looking in to a religion they don't agree with would out of the blue snap grab THEIR writings and then start their own thing.

You don't accept authority of people, don't accept authority of scriptures, where do you even start? Why not start with a Muslim Quaran or book of Mormon or anything for that matter.


1 corinthians 12

14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20But now there are many members, but one body. 21And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Okay, let's try this thread again, one last time.

I didn't say anything about 'clergy' vs 'laity'. I asked if you had studied about "Leadership" in scripture.

It seems you are stuck on a confusion, that only exists in your experience or mind, that is not actually present as a functional role in scripture.

Do you accept the 'offices'/positions, even the order, that God gives in the ekklesia? For instance, Ephesians 4:11, as seen working in Acts 15, &c?

Leadership quite obviously denotes one who leads or is in charge ergo the guy at the top. According to my "confusion" (of which there is none whatsoever) -- no one person is ever to be "over the flock", in charge as such. That idea is not supported by the New Testament -- it's just the way have done things for millennia and it has cemented itself into the societal psyche. "Pastor" actually meaning a shepherd, is one that tends to the flock, shows them the best place to eat and protects them from danger and is willing to lay his life down for them -- in essence to put them above his own life. When have you heard of a shepherd declaring, "I am in charge here." No, there is a natural understanding, a cohesive order. The sheep never hire a shepherd nor pay his salary.

Ephesians 4:10-12

Darby Translation


He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and *he* has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ;

Yes, I believe in the members of the body exercising their gifts as given by the Spirit. But these are no "offices" one applies for and thus is hired. These are on-the-earth, expressions of Christ for the perfecting of the saints. This is a very simple concept about how the Body of Christ functions with only Christ as head. If you read the writings of Watchman Nee, Stephen Kaung, Lance Lambert, and T. Austin Sparks this is all explained very clearly.

"The system of fathers of the world church, the clergy system of the state church, and the pastoral system of the independent churches are all the same in nature. They are all Nicolaitans. In the Bible there are only brothers. There is the gift of a pastor, but no system of pastors. The pastoral system is man's tradition. If the children of God are not willing to return to the position of that in the beginning, no matter what they do, it will not be right." ~ Watchman Nee


"What is the Church? It is Christ in living union with His own, that wheresoever two or three are gathered together in His name there He is in the midst. That is the Church. You do not build special buildings and call them "the Church." You do not have special organisations, religious institutions, which you call "the Church." Believers in living union with the risen Lord constitute the Church. This is the reality, not the figure. That is to say, His flesh, human limitation, is done away. Now in union with Christ risen all human limitations are transcended. This is one of the wonders of Christ risen as a living reality. We are brought into a realm of capacities which are more than human capacities, where, because of Christ in us, we can do what we never could do naturally.

We have never followed a pattern discovered on earth. Either we were inculpable ignorance, blissful blindness, or providential innocence, but we knew not of the same order obtaining already. So far as we were concerned it seemed as though the Lord was beginning with us at zero. Neither had we studied the New Testament with the object of trying to formulate a New Testament church or its order. We have since come to believe that the New Testament does not give a full and final pattern for reproduction and imitation." ~ T. Austin Sparks


"Don't try to set up anything, just come together and seek the Lord together and let the Spirit of the Lord (lead), don't try to have a sort of idea of what you are going to do or what you are going to be. Just start from the very foundation as believers coming together around the Lord, seeking the Lord. Don't have any kind of definite idea as to what will transpire and if you can do that then you give the Spirit of God freedom to move among you towards that which the Lord himself is after. You have to start entirely from the very beginning; don't follow the pattern of the past. Really start as simple Christians, that is the way to do." ~ Stephen Kaung



Listen to this when you have time: Meeting Together #4 – The Church an Organism


Lastly, if have never heard of Frank Viola's Pagan Christianity then download and read it here: https://www.theology.kiev.ua/images/afiles/0000412.pdf