When Churchianity fails you . . .

[Parashah]

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Hi Seeker of the Source,

I'm moving on but hope you realise that the aggressive replies you receive here are not representive of genuine Christian behaviour. I hope you continue your spiritual quest and find peace in Christ.

I will remember you in my prayers. Pls remember the parable of the Sheep and the Goats our Lord gave in Matthew 25:31-46.

The goats will be exposed on Judgement Day.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Okay, let's try this thread again, one last time.

Leadership quite obviously denotes one who leads or is in charge ergo the guy at the top. According to my "confusion" (of which there is none whatsoever) -- no one person is ever to be "over the flock", in charge as such. That idea is not supported by the New Testament ...

Scripture:

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.​

Jesus Christ is in 'charge' as He is the "Head", and He sent the Holy Ghost down to us, and thus He is in charge down here in Christ's stead. Yet, there is "order" in the "body" of Christ. This includes, Elders (Bishops/Overseers), Deacons, etc.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
​

There are undershepherds to Christ Jesus:

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.​

Notice, there are those who 'rule' over (in the context of the church), as they have an appointed office from God:

Rom_11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom_12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

1Ti_3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1Ti_3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

1Ti_3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Act_6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.​

1Co 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

1Th_5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

Heb_13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.​

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Hi Seeker of the Source,

I'm moving on but hope you realise that the aggressive replies you receive here are not representive of genuine Christian behaviour. I hope you continue your spiritual quest and find peace in Christ.

I will remember you in my prayers. Pls remember the parable of the Sheep and the Goats our Lord gave in Matthew 25:31-46.

The goats will be exposed on Judgement Day.

Thanx and amen to you brother. Like I have said before here, I knew the hornets would come out after me when I started poking the hornets' nest of churchianity. Their behaviors are easy to understand when you realize you are poking holes in their cherished "isms".

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Scripture:

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.​

Jesus Christ is in 'charge' as He is the "Head", and He sent the Holy Ghost down to us, and thus He is in charge down here in Christ's stead. Yet, there is "order" in the "body" of Christ. This includes, Elders (Bishops/Overseers), Deacons, etc.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
​

There are undershepherds to Christ Jesus:

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.​

Notice, there are those who 'rule' over (in the context of the church), as they have an appointed office from God:

Rom_11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom_12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

1Ti_3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1Ti_3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

1Ti_3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Act_6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.​

1Co 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

1Th_5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

Heb_13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.​

Those who follow and love the current clergy vs laity system are comfortable with such until God gives them revelation of the TRUE way to gather. I used to be in the system up to my neck until it nearly drowned me. I can't fully explain here my revelation to "come out unto Him" to anyone here. I just KNOW it is truth and no quoting of assorted scriptures seeming to support a clergy vs. laity system will ever sway me or the 100s of thousands of believers worldwide who now know otherwise.

I will say this again:

Ephesians 4:10-12

Darby Translation


He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and *he* has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ;

Yes, I believe in the members of the body exercising their gifts as given by the Spirit. But these are no "offices" one applies for and thus is hired. These are on-the-earth, expressions of Christ for the perfecting of the saints. This is a very simple concept about how the Body of Christ functions with only Christ as head. If you read the writings of Watchman Nee, Stephen Kaung, Lance Lambert, and T. Austin Sparks this is all explained very clearly.

 

[John of Japan]

Thanx and amen to you brother. Like I have said before here, I knew the hornets would come out after me when I started poking the hornets' nest of churchianity. Their behaviors are easy to understand when you realize you are poking holes in their cherished "isms".
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Hmm. "Isms" like evangelism, commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ? You still have not answered my post about the Great Commission being a command. Do you feel that it is "Christian freedom" to disobey Christ's command? You called obeying it legalism. Is it legalism to insist that Christ's commands must be obeyed or it is sin? Can you back up your claim with Scripture?

If you love Jesus you will keep His commandments. John 14:15--"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:23--"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Very simple logic here. If you love Jesus, you will obey the Great Commission. If you do not obey the Great Commission, seeking to get the Gospel to all peoples, you do not love Jesus. You are simply doing churchianity, no matter how much you claim to have the only "TRUE way to gather" (your words).

 

[Seeker of the Source]

In the near future I will share here the testimonies of several saints I know who have each left the religious system imposed on the ekklesia millennia ago, ( about 300 CE), by well-meaning but deluded men.

I asked each of them to explain to me what the ekklesia vs. traditional religion means to them. Once I have collected their responses, I will post them here. Please be patient as they each are approaching this issue in their own time frame and I told them there was no hurry.

I thought other viewpoints on this topic would be informative.

now listening to: "Music That Will Change Your Life"

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Hmm. "Isms" like evangelism, commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ? You still have not answered my post about the Great Commission being a command. Do you feel that it is "Christian freedom" to disobey Christ's command? You called obeying it legalism. Is it legalism to insist that Christ's commands must be obeyed or it is sin? Can you back up your claim with Scripture?

If you love Jesus you will keep His commandments. John 14:15--"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:23--"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Very simple logic here. If you love Jesus, you will obey the Great Commission. If you do not obey the Great Commission, seeking to get the Gospel to all peoples, you do not love Jesus. You are simply doing churchianity, no matter how much you claim to have the only "TRUE way to gather" (your words).

John, you do as you are lead by the Spirit and I will do as I am so lead. The "great commission" simply means something to your heart differently than to mine. My focus is on the ekklesia nowadays as she is so trapped in a system created by man and not God. Once she is free of those shackles then sinners can see and hear the complete Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and the first century disciples spoke of. Then this complete Gospel can go forth in power and sinners will see Jesus in all His Glory and not perceive the Savior as a concept put in some little "box" men have made for Him to be more palatable.

 

[Alofa Atu]

I can't fully explain here my revelation to "come out unto Him" to anyone here. I just KNOW it is truth and no quoting of assorted scriptures

Oh, I caught what you just said just fine. I am leaving you be, not because I desired it, but that is what you desired. I shake the dust from my feet.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

... I shake the dust from my feet.

Cough, cough . . . good bye.

 

[John of Japan]

Those who follow and love the current clergy vs laity system are comfortable with such until God gives them revelation of the TRUE way to gather. I used to be in the system up to my neck until it nearly drowned me. I can't fully explain here my revelation to "come out unto Him" to anyone here. I just KNOW it is truth and no quoting of assorted scriptures seeming to support a clergy vs. laity system will ever sway me or the 100s of thousands of believers worldwide who now know otherwise.

So if I get you right, you are saying that you have an extrabiblical, personal revelation by which to interpret the Bible verse which says, "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach" (Hebrews 13:13). Do I have that right?

 

[John of Japan]

John, you do as you are lead by the Spirit and I will do as I am so lead. The "great commission" simply means something to your heart differently than to mine. My focus is on the ekklesia nowadays as she is so trapped in a system created by man and not God. Once she is free of those shackles then sinners can see and hear the complete Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and the first century disciples spoke of. Then this complete Gospel can go forth in power and sinners will see Jesus in all His Glory and not perceive the Savior as a concept put in some little "box" men have made for Him to be more palatable.

It does not matter in the slightest what the Great Commission is to your heart or mine. It is a direct command from the Lord Jesus Christ. If I told my son when he was little something to do--"Set the table"--I would not care what his opinion of it was.

So, then, as I understand it, you do not believe that it is incumbent on a disciple of Jesus Christ to obey the commands He gives--they are suggestions to you, is that correct? And you believe that any insistence on obeying Christ's commands is "legalism," is that correct?

Now of course you don't have to answer anything I've written. It's entirely up to you. However, what I would like to know more than anything else so far is, what is your definition of the Gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom as you seem to prefer to put it?

 

[John of Japan]

In the near future I will share here the testimonies of several saints I know who have each left the religious system imposed on the ekklesia millennia ago, ( about 300 CE), by well-meaning but deluded men.

I teach church history, so I would love to know how the religious system was imposed on the ekklesia in about 300 AD (not CE, which is a heathen attempt to deny that this is Anno Domini, the "year of the Lord").

 

[John of Japan]

Seeker of the Source claims to follow Watchman Nee and his followers. Yet he has not answered a single post I have made about Watchman Nee. Try this story to see who Watchman Nee really was, a soul-winning prayer warrior who promoted revival.

Nee and his evangelistic team (obeying the Great Commission) went to the village of Mei-hwa in 1925, because Faithful Luke's adoptive mother worked there. The people there worshipped the idol Ta-Wang (大王, "Great King"), who they said could control the weather. Well, Evangelist Nee could not make headway in that village, so he went to a pirates' island nearby, and there saw three pirate families trust Christ as Savior and burned their idols, a great victory! However, Watchman could not get Mei-hwa out of his mind, so the team went back.

As it happened, the village was about to have a festival for Ta-Wang. Nee and the team began to pray with faith for rain the day of the festival. This would prove the idol to be powerless. The day came and no rain, but the men kept praying. Then sure enough, it rained, but in spite of it the villagers carried their god out of it's shrine. Watchman prayed for greater rain, so a gully washer came down and the idolaters dropped their god, breaking its jaw and left arm! Some of the elders of the village also fell down and were hurt. Well, the village worshippers decided to postpone the festival until three days later. Surely then Ta-wang would intervene and stop the rain. But no, in answer to the prayers of the Chinese soul sinners the rain came again the next day.

Through this, God gave a tremendous victory, with 30 saved in the village. The power of the worthless idol was broken. You can read the story in more detail than I have given in the biography of Watchman Nee, Against the Tide, by Angus I Kinnear, pp. 71-75. See it here: https://www.amazon.com/Against-Tide-Angus-Kinnear/dp/1619582430/ref=sr_1_1?crid=169P2O780B2IH&dchild=1&keywords=angus+kinnear+against+the+tide&qid=1605294977&sprefix=Against+the+Tide+angus+,aps,171&sr=8-1

One day in Japan I was ready to go out on evangelism with my dear friend and convert 幅崎さん (Mr. Habazaki). Lo and behold it was raining when I picked him up, so led by the Holy Spirit I prayed, "Lord, please stop the rain so we can get the Gospel out." And God did stop the rain! The next time it was raining at our time for dendo (伝道, evangelism), Habazaki himself said, "Sensei (先生, "Teacher"), I will pray for the rain to stop." And he did so, and God stopped the rain so we could go soul winning.

I challenge Seeker of the Source: When have have you seen miracles? When have you seen souls saved? If you have not seen any miracles and your house church doesn't see anyone saved, how do you have the gall to claim to follow Watchman Nee??

P. S. I asked the 16 students of my Greek class today who had read one of Nee's books, and every single hand went up. They are required to read one of his books for a class on the Christian life, I believe it was. Looks to me like our "organized church" lives closer to Nee's teaching than your "house church" does. But the main thing is, are we following Christ. Yet you refuse to admit that His last command is incumbent on us to obey.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

In the near future I will share here the testimonies of several saints I know who have each left the religious system imposed on the ekklesia millennia ago, ( about 300 CE), by well-meaning but deluded men.

I asked each of them to explain to me what the ekklesia vs. traditional religion means to them. Once I have collected their responses, I will post them here. Please be patient as they each are approaching this issue in their own time frame and I told them there was no hurry.

I thought other viewpoints on this topic would be informative. . . .

As I promised . . .

I told some friends of mine about my discussion here of the ekklesia vs. the organized traditional church. I asked them to be frank and share their opinions with me so I could post them here.

Here they are, in their unedited frankness:

I recall wanting to really love the Lord, and not sure how to know my own heart. My emotions changed from one day to the next. I read the scripture "if you love me you will keep my word." I just decided to try to worship Him as the scripture says, using the early church examples. Just trying not to add to nor take away from it. This is how I know I am loving Him. It is pretty simple really. Hope this makes sense. ~ sister JT

and from another . . .

Well to start with I would say the spiritual difference is the difference between going out in your back yard and playing on your Kids swing set or going to Disney World! The real church (ekklesia) is God's idea, the organized church is man's idea, which is really Satan's idea. Satan has a counterfeit for everything God created. Christ's ekklesia is an organism, where traditional church is an organization. The traditional church is about buildings, offerings, numbers, doctrinal correctness, proper acting, rules and regulations. Ekklesia is about Jesus and living for others.


The organized church is death, Jesus Christ is Life. Without a revelation from the Lord, people won't know the difference. ~ brother BL


And from another . . .

. . . just don’t even feel that I’ve really worshipped when all I’ve done is what somebody else has told me to do in a “church service”. ~ brother JI


And from another . . .

We just have to only be lead by the Holy Spirit in worship and not by a man, etc. ~ brother LT


And still another . . .

The church is people organized by love to fellowship in the eternal life. We recognize the Life of God in each other and obey the commandment that we love one another as He has loved us. We are His friends and friends of one another if we do what He commands. This is the fellowship of the Saints and Eternal Life. ~ AF

And from another . . .

This dear brother YL, actually created a video to speak to all those concerned about the church. It is just under 28 minutes long. Watch and/or download it here:
https://3leducation.com/mp4/What-is-the-Church.mp4

And finally, in brief, I again share my view of the ekklesia:

The church (ekklesia) was never to be an organization, (a company really, with bills, earnings, building plans, employees and by-laws and so forth.) The ekklesia is a living, breathing, spiritual entity, an organism that exists in the heavenlies and in the physical realm simultaneously. She may or may not need a roof over her head at times but she never looks or functions anything like a company and she certainly is not best suited to such religious constraints that modern-day Christendom has attempted to put her in. And frankly, there is no confusion at work here. Unless you want to assert a revelation from God is confusion.

The idea of clergy versus laity is for the Old Testament, Levites and the people, etc. is old news . . . After Christ came that earlier set up given to Moses was all done away with. Sadly, well-meaning religious men re-instituted the idea of clergy vs laity. Still, there is not to be pastors, ministers, priests, etc, etc and then the people.
Leadership exerting control or "lording over" a gathering never works out like God intended. He didn't want Israel to have a king, He himself wanted to be their King. But men just refuse to let the Spirit of God be their only guide. And thus a religious deadening comes in among us as we warm the pew.

I want to thank my brothers and sister for answering my request to share on the ekklesia. They are from all over the US and one is from Canada.

Please read the lengthy 3-part post sent to me that follows. It was too long to share with the above views.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

And here is another opinion in several parts that follow one another here. (Forum won't allow too lengthy a single post.)

And from another dear saint . . . (Part 1)

I believe Scripture teaches us the same truths about the body of Christ from a variety of perspectives, all asserting that the church of Jesus Christ is a living organism into which members are born the moment they are born again by the Spirit as Jesus describes to Nicodemus in John 3. I believe this moment of rebirth is described in Rom.6 as the moment in which God unites the believer with Christ in the likeness of His death, burial, and resurrection and that every believer is now raised free, not free to sin but freed from the power of sin to now offer up ourselves entirely to the God of our Salvation as His servants —His instruments—to demonstrate His righteousness as the recipients of His righteousness and in so doing, to shine forth a living testimony of the testimony of the risen Lord Jesus Christ upon the earth in each generation until He comes. I believe the Scripture explains from yet another perspective in 1 Cor.12, that the Holy Spirit baptizes each genuine believer at the moment they come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, equipping each member with special supernatural gifts of specialized grace enabling every believer to serve in specific ministries not from natural talents or abilities or skills but in the power and abilities of God Himself. As illustrated by the metaphor of the human body in 1 Cor.12 the gifts are determined by God Himself according to His design for His body, they are permanent and are not interchangeable. Each Spiritual gift is a shining forth of the Holy Spirit in service (ministry) to Christ the Lord, for the edification of His body (not for self) and for the glory of God alone. Understanding God’s design for His body enables us to recognize and fully appreciate Christ in one another without envy or pride in the matter of ministry in the church.

I believe the Bible is very clear in that there is neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, I.e. in the church, but that we are all one new man in Christ. I Pet. 2 teaches that every believer is part of a kingdom of priests to God who serve as priests to God under the headship of our Great High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom.8 teaches that every believer lives by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, and every believer is to be led by the Holy Spirit of God. The entire book of Heb. explains that the old covenant has been made obsolete by the new and eternal covenant which is in the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ (see Matt.26:28; Heb.9:20; Heb.10:14-18). Heb.12 explains that we now come to worship by a new and living way...and Heb.13 calls every believer to suffer the Lord’s reproach, the same reproach Jesus suffered in rejection, we are to suffer with Him outside the camp of obsolete and empty religion which is devoid of life by the Spirit of God.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

And here is (Part 2):

As is true of any living organism the coordinated orchestration of the individual parts sharing one life determines proper functioning of the whole. I believe God has ordained—and explained sufficiently—that pertaining to both family and church affairs as the Scripture clearly teaches that Lord Jesus Christ is head over all things to the church (1 Cor.11, Col.1). Every believer is to be led by the Holy Spirit of God (Rom.8). However, God is also a God of order—as the metaphor of the human body in 1 Cor. 12 also illustrates and 1 Cor.11 explains. In the home and in the church God has ordained that oversight in governing church affairs effecting the body and the testimony of Jesus are a responsibility entrusted to men. Beginning with the first man, Adam, even previous to the fall, we find men are placed as heads over their own households and thus we see the principle of Governmental leadership being the revealed will of God throughout the history of Israel as well as His church.

The men in whom God places responsibly for oversight in His church are not merely volunteers; they are not men who sought a career in religion nor men hired to “take care of church affairs”, or even men selected by popular vote to take care of church affairs, but Spirit filled men attested to by gifting by God with abilities equipping them for the service of shepherding God’s people and attested to by the body’s recognition of the edifying service they’re providing within the body.

In the new covenant of grace God has given no regulations of worship, no dietary law, no order of priesthood as in the covenant of Law. He has given us His Word and His Spirit by which God Himself comes to us and reveals Himself to us. Christ has fulfilled every requirement of the Levitical Law although there are spiritual principles which are eternal and the things written beforehand are for our example and instruction upon whom the end of the age has come. The moral law of God exhibits God’s Own nature, therefore was previous to the covenant of Law and continues to be the righteous requirement of a Holy God for all eternity.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

And here is (Part 3):

The N.T. Shows us that the saints in Christ did not adhere to the Law but met together in simplicity, in a very natural way, to pray, remembering the Lord’s death until He comes again, sharing meals, hearing the apostle’s teaching, sharing one another’s needs, and generally growing together in the grace and true knowledge of the Lord. We find no Examples of spectators, no visitors invited to the gathering of the church for worship, but rather the Word spread through evangelism in places other than the gatherings for worship and the Lord added to church those who were being saved.

Those who had been saved were baptized in water to signify their union with Jesus Christ in the likeness of His death, burial, and resurrection. The examples shown us in the N.T. as well as the instruction given shows meetings of the church were all very simple gatherings of saints meeting in their homes. There are no Church buildings, no choir, no worship leaders, no building programs, no priestly rituals, no church staff, no church bulletins, no kid’s church, no teen program, no religious “holidays”, no church traditions other than water baptism of believers and that which was called the Lord’s supper.

What did a meeting of the church look like, what did they do when the saints met together? Acts gives instruction as well as shows us spiritual principles in the examples of HOW evangelism and gatherings of the church were conducted. The epistles provide instruction, exhortation, and warning, as well as examples in how the church was to worship, how to do ministry edifying the body, raising families, doing business, safe-guarding from error, missionary outreach —literally all of life. 1 Cor.14 best describes (I think) what N.T. Worship was intended to look like, how a “worship service” was to be conducted...freely, as led by the Holy Spirit.

A study of church history is necessary to understand how what we see in the N.T. Church in Scripture contrasted with what has morphed into the common practice in denominations and to a lesser degree in nondenominational churches (some call themselves “fellowships” or “assemblies”) around the world today. (“Miller’s Church History” is my highest recommended source for an accurate and detailed account of this history.)

But to be brief, during the time of the Roman Empire the Emperor Constantine and his mother had some kind of religious experience resulting in the Roman Empire (the known world at the time) being declared a The Holy Roman Empire. All citizens of Rome were required to become “Christian”. Under the rule of Rome was every religion, complete with rituals, traditions, their religious orders, from priests to nunneries, festivals, idols revered publicly, etc., which people in various segments of the Empire had practiced for generations—including Judaism—was thrown into a great big religious stew-pot, stirred up, simmered over the centuries, cooked up and fed to the people as the new Romanized Christianity. Rather than attempt to abolish the pagan practices of every false religion so dear yet (so dear to the pagan beliefs yet so deadly) it was decided to simply declare them all “conquered by Rome and baptized Christian”.

The pagan goddess was renamed “Mary”, Mary was declared to have been born-lived-died-ascended without sin just as Christ Himself, and Mary was declared co-redeemer with Christ, saints were prayed to as intercessors by those who believed in ancestor worship, and all the pagan festivals were renamed in celebration of saints and even the Lord Jesus Himself. The unsaved pagans of the Empire were happy to continue enjoying their traditions as usual and only those pesky born again people refused to honor “Christ” by their participation in pagan practices.

By the time of the Spanish Inquisition Roman Catholicism had erected a mighty fortress that was a stronghold of fear raised and imprisoning the souls of the realm; the religion of Rome was the only acceptable religion. The only people who openly defied the Pope (him who served as head of Catholicism) were marked out for severe persecution and or death. The only people willing to risk the wrath of Rome were those who managed to be saved even in the midst of such darkness. Good, loving parents driven by fear taught their babies to never question the “church”, just believe what ever the “church” said and do whatever the “church” required. For centuries only the Roman priests were permitted any portion of Scripture for fear of death, and even after the printing of Bibles Catholics were taught that only priests were able to understand the Bible and every loyal Catholic remains dependent upon the Pope to this day to interpret and modify God’s Word as he sees fit.

That the Jewish weekly Sabbath is Saturday is a fact. That the Jewish day begins and ends at sunset is a fact. That our Lord was crucified, buried, and raised on the 3rd day is a repeated fact from God’s Word. That He was hastily laid in the tomb at the end of Passover Day just before the high holy day, a yearly Sabbath (also known as the day of preparation—as the Feast of Unleavened Bread ) began at sunset is undisputed. That the weekly Sabbath followed the yearly Sabbath that year so that our Lord remained undisturbed in the grave 3 days is undisputed. That the 3rd day ended as nightfall began and the Lord Jesus was seen alive early in the morning the day after the Sabbath—Sunday morning— is also undisputed. Yet, few understand that Rome made a little calendar change a few centuries later, departing the resurrection of Jesus from Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread entirely. The Church has “celebrated” the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on what it calls “Good Friday” ever since...and has celebrated His resurrection on what it calls “Easter Sunday”.

Does it matter? The very word “Easter” is a transliteration of one of the pagan goddesses. Chicks are not resurrected—chicks are hatched. How many well-churched people even ask why colored eggs form rabbits and are celebrated at Easter with egg hunts in the church yard? But does it matter, as long as we believe He is risen?

The saints on the Mayflower came to the New World to escape religious persecution not from Rome but from the Church of England, which had become a milder form of religious dictatorship afflicting the saints of God with a whiter shade of persecution. The Mayflower folk didn’t celebrate Dec.25th as the Lord’s birthday—nor did they celebrate Halloween—and no one asks why?

Not for a couple of hundred years, until traditions largely brought in by Catholic immigrants in the 1800’s, were those days ever celebrated in the US. Does it matter as long as we know God the Son was incarnated, Christ is honored, we know He’s the true light Who has defeated all the powers of darkness, and the people are happy? Does it matter?

The Lord Jesus says He will build His church, and He will. So? What is wrong with church buildings, skilled professional pastors, programs prepared in advance, a band and singers to lead every song, someone to tell us when to kneel, when to sit, when to stand, when to pray in a “worship service”, so we needn’t even think about what to say or what to sing or what to pray?

What’s wrong with celebrating the popular traditional religious holidays, as long as we all honor Christ and we’re enjoying ourselves? And after all—aren’t these holidays all great opportunities for evangelism?

The answer to such questions requires very up close and personal soul searching and honesty before the LORD. What matters to God in the time of grace needs to be settled in every heart. The truth is, what we believe is what rules our choices.

For myself, I believe it is a matter of simple obedience. I choose to meet in simplicity with like minded believers because I believe God’s Word shows it to be the “new and living way”, the pattern in which the church was depicted as gathering is still the way in which the church is to gather according to His Word because neither God nor His Word have changed. I also believe the Word tells us why—because it is my understanding that now is the time which, as the Lord Jesus explains In John 4, those who worship God the Father must Worship in Spirit and in truth. And I also believe God has the right to tell me how He wants to be worshiped just as much as He had the right to tell Cain how to bring an acceptable offering to Him. What’s more, I’m grateful that He has told me what He desires because it has been my own proven experience that the most satisfying, most fulfilling thing I can do in any situation—worship—ministry—career—relationships—will always be the way of obedience to God’s Own Word. Yes, I can worship God in a “traditional church setting”, or alone, but given the freedom of gathering with saints to worship together in simplicity, as I believe God has described in Acts 20, in 1 Cor. 11, 1 Cor.14, and other passages in His Own Word is what I believe the Lord both instructs and calls His people to. ~ sister FI

 

[AustinC]

Outsiders did come to church services in the early days. Christians didn't have formal buildings to meet in, but that was because Christianity was contrary to the Roman teaching that Caesar was the spokesman of the gods and should be worshipped.

1 Corinthians 14:16-19 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Outsiders did come to church services in the early days. . . .

1 Corinthians 14:16-19 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I totally agree with you "AustinC".

When I read that one posted sister's sharing about, " . . . We find no Examples of spectators, no visitors invited to the gathering of the church for worship . . ." I was a really surprised she had forgotten about that I Corinthians passage you just shared. Goes to show I shared unedited opinions . . .

Oh well. Thanks for bringing that up!

 

[Seeker of the Source]

So if I get you right, you are saying that you have an extrabiblical, personal revelation by which to interpret the Bible verse which says, "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach" (Hebrews 13:13). Do I have that right?

I indeed have had a very personal and costly revelation from the Spirit of God, calling me out of organized religion, "outside of the camp" as referred to in Hebrews - which is biblical-based and not "extra-biblical".

And after this revelation, I came across others' very similar testimonies and also writings that also confirmed my renewed interpretation of Hebrews 13:13. This verse was not only asking Jews to leave the camp of Judaism in the 1st century but has come down through the centuries as a clarion call for the true ekklesia, (the called out ones), to leave the camp of churchianity -- to flee the clergy-laity, pastoral system created by men and not by the Lord.

May the Lord Himself give you this same revelation, my brother.