When Churchianity fails you . . .

[Seeker of the Source]

Like you have a revelation?
How can others ascertain your truth?
What scripture can they check?

Do you consider yourself to be a prophet?

Why did you change your name on this forum?

SGO, Yes, I have had a revelation, confirmed in my obedience to it and by many others who have seen the same thing revealed to them. For example: Watchman Nee, Stephen Kaung, Lance Lambert, T. Austin Sparks, Dana Congdon, Frank Viola, Gene Edwards and many others from 1000s of years ago.

Others here will typically not understand my beliefs nor will they accept scriptures I may offer. I already tried that here and it didn't work because those still in the system only interpret scriptures as fitting the system's paradigms. I have tried sharing such scriptures with pastors and bible critics since 2009 and not once did they ever accept scriptures I offered. It is 99% of the time -- pointless.

If you really are interested in some history of where I am coming from in my "revelation" then feel free to look here:
MediaFire
There is a boat load of interesting older and newer documents here. I originally uploaded these writings for folks in my local fellowship and national conference call bible study to read during the quarantine.

I have been told, long ago, by a ridiculous Baptist "find your gifts" survey that I am a "prophet or teacher without mercy". I really don't know if that is true but I keep on sharing anyway, mercilessly for years.

I changed my name/moniker here because I erred in signing up using my real name. I rarely use my real name online anywhere. The internet is a dangerous place. It was simple mistake. As others here use nicknames and such -- I just decided to request an administrator here to do so for me.

Ciao!

 

[SGO]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I know the Holy Spirit guides each one of us who belong to Jesus but using the word "revelation" is just too strong for me.
Too easy to stray if you go beyond what is written.
I did try Mediafire but there are too many hoops to jump through it to use for me.
Many posts by different people, some whose names I recognize; which are yours?
If you consider yourself a prophet have you ever erred?

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I know the Holy Spirit guides each one of us who belong to Jesus but using the word "revelation" is just too strong for me.
Too easy to stray if you go beyond what is written.
I did try Mediafire but there are too many hoops to jump through it to use for me.
Many posts by different people, some whose names I recognize; which are yours?
If you consider yourself a prophet have you ever erred?

SGO, any time you read a scripture and it seems all new to you with fuller meaning than ever before -- that is a revelation. When you need wisdom about a situation you are facing -- and then out from what seems like "nowhere" comes the solution and it jives with your spirit -- that is a revelation, a revealing, an opening up -- just for you -- His child. It's what He does.

I consider my call to leave the organized church -- yet another revelation the Lord has given me of many others down through the years. I was saved in 1974. I have actually heard the Lord, speak a phrase, to me just once in my life. I will never forget that. He said, "Ramath Gilead." To this today, I still haven't fully figured it out -- but I thereafter made my home a refuge -- and many needy folk lived with us over the years. Let a revelation be strong. It is a supernatural gift to you! Check it by the scripture and test it if you need to do such.

As far as Mediafire use goes, just click on something interesting and download it. They are all virus-malware free files I am sharing. Easy-peasy. Just a very few writings are indeed mine from 2009, by JWP.

A prophet speaks forth the mind of the Lord into situations and sometimes it concerns events that are yet to be in the future. Have I ever erred? Hmm... Well, I never ever predicted the future -- and I feel I have only spoke what the Lord has commanded me to share every time I spoke or wrote something from Him. To date, no obvious false witness, I know of, has come forth. I have only received appreciation and thanks elsewhere from other saints over the years -- some I have yet to meet. But here -- on the Baptist Board -- well if anyone appreciates what I have shared from my heart -- I am not feeling it yet. Oh well . . . I guess it's just too to hard to fully appreciate the controversial things I share here when you are still "in the system".

 

[SGO]

Hey Seeker, we were saved the same year!

I am very wary of you because you advocate getting out of "the system". You have been doing what you are doing so long you're used to it, and serious questioning is viewed as an attack. I supposed you are used to that too.


A definition:
Revelation Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Revelation [N]

an uncovering, a bringing to light of that which had been previously wholly hidden or only obscurely seen. God has been pleased in various ways and at different times ( Hebrews 1:1 ) to make a supernatural revelation of himself and his purposes and plans, which, under the guidance of his Spirit, has been committed to writing. (See WORD OF GOD .) The Scriptures are not merely the "record" of revelation; they are the revelation itself in a written form, in order to the accurate preservation and propagation of the truth.

Revelation and inspiration differ. Revelation is the supernatural communication of truth to the mind; inspiration (q.v.) secures to the teacher or writer infallibility in communicating that truth to others. It renders its subject the spokesman or prophet of God in such a sense that everything he asserts to be true, whether fact or doctrine or moral principle, is true, infallibly true.



I am going to stick with what I know is the word of God and not trust any extra-biblical "revelations."


Someone earlier mentioned we will have to go smaller when we undergo persecution and I think that is true.

But you like the freedom your situation gives you to be an authority. I think you are a rebel at heart so you have a joy in being free to share your "heart."

Do you have any humans who have spiritual authority over you?

How do the people in your "church" tell if your sayings are true?

Do they just accept what you say at face value because they are your sheep?

And how can others ascertain your truth?
What scripture can they check for your pronouncements?

Bereans searched the scriptures daily, whether these things were so.
Acts 17:10

Prove all things.
1 Thessalonians 5:21

...try the spirits whether they are of God.
1John 4:1

Suppose you are right 95% of the time?

If you are married has you wife ever confronted you about something where you had to admit you were wrong and did you say, "Yes, Dear" just to appease her?

Am I telling you to stop?
Nope.

I am just not going to follow someone who says he gets revelations from God that go beyond any insights gained from scripture.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Hey Seeker, we were saved the same year!

I am very wary of you because you advocate getting out of "the system". You have been doing what you are doing so long you're used to it, and serious questioning is viewed as an attack. I supposed you are used to that too.
...

I am going to stick with what I know is the word of God and not trust any extra-biblical "revelations."...

But you like the freedom your situation gives you to be an authority. I think you are a rebel at heart so you have a joy in being free to share your "heart."

Do you have any humans who have spiritual authority over you?

How do the people in your "church" tell if your sayings are true?

Do they just accept what you say at face value because they are your sheep?

. . .

If you are married has you wife ever confronted you about something where you had to admit you were wrong and did you say, "Yes, Dear" just to appease her?

Am I telling you to stop?
Nope.

I am just not going to follow someone who says he gets revelations from God that go beyond any insights gained from scripture.

It is normal to be wary of someone who has left the "system" you still accept. I understand about that completely but I will still assert the "system" is not of God.

I understand that to your understanding my position is "extra-biblical" because you believe the "system" IS biblical -- but it is actually of men and not of God -- and not bible-based -- it is as Jesus said, for example . . .

from J.B. Phillips New Testament

Jesus exposes the danger of man-made traditions

Mark 7
6-8 Jesus replied, “You hypocrites, Isaiah described you beautifully when he wrote—‘This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. And in vain they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’. You are so busy holding on to the traditions of men that you let go the commandment of God!”

9-13 Then he went on, “It is wonderful to see how you can set aside the commandment of God to preserve your own tradition!"

The church of the 1st century looked nothing like the "system" men have subsequently invented. It has become doctrinal and is traditional but goes beyond the commandments of God.

If leaving the "system" makes me a rebel to those still within -- then so be it.

No one man is in authority over me. We submit to one another in the Lord as the Spirit leads. It works. It ain't broken, so we don't mess with it.

What I say is Spirit lead and does not contradict the bible. If there is error the brothers and sisters are free to say so.

I am not the leader and I have no sheep. We are all sheep lead by Jesus.

My dear and patient wife at times says, "That was wrong." or "You need to apologize. or "I don't think you should do that." I listen to her and 95% she sees and shares the truth. And 95% of the time I will agree with her as God has made us one and I trust her. I don't do things to appease her, I do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

It is totally fine you don't trust me. You don't know me. You don't agree with my viewpoint anyway -- yet being of the bible and God's revelation thereof. Only after the Lord Himself speaks the Truth about all this to your heart will you then understand -- and perhaps then -- you may trust me.

Consider reading the works of Nee, Kaung, Lambert, Viola, Edwards, Congdon or reading one of the documents there online via Mediafire. They may nudge your understanding a bit -- as to why I am such a satisfied "rebel" delivered from the "system".

I suggest you read this first off: Frank Viola Exposes Pagan Christianity

Peace to you!

 

[canadyjd]

It is normal to be wary of someone who has left the "system" you still accept.....The church of the 1st century looked nothing like the "system" men have subsequently invented. It has become doctrinal and is traditional but goes beyond the commandments of God.

No one man is in authority over me.

Peace to you!

The 1st century church is the model followed by most churches I’ve belonged to. We strive to reproduce doctrine and practice doing all things in order.

Scripture identifies leadership within those churches and commands members to respect those men.

I see you using vague language, mostly, about a “system” or organization or things “invented” by these men, regardless of scriptural support for those practices (whatever it is you are against)

It occurs to me we are using a different language, so to speak. If I want a scriptural basis for everything I do in worship and practice, and you rely on personal revelation or movement of the Spirit; disregarding scripture as being corrupted by “men” or “tradition” and so on, then we are doomed to speak past each other, regardless of good intentions.

I do want to offer this advice, for whatever it’s worth. I’ve noticed some comments that I find troubling. The first is the claim of belonging to the one “true way”. That is a common statement among heretical groups.

Just to be clear, I’m not accusing you of being a heretic. I firmly believe all Christians should be convinced in their own minds, but also show an abundance of grace toward those who disagree on non-essential issues.

The second is accusing those who follow a traditional church organization as being deceived by Satan. This is inflammatory at best and dangerous at worst. Don’t expect civil discussion if that accusation is asserted.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Seeker of the Source]

The 1st century church is the model followed by most churches I’ve belonged to. We strive to reproduce doctrine and practice doing all things in order.

Scripture identifies leadership within those churches and commands members to respect those men.

I see you using vague language, mostly, about a “system” or organization or things “invented” by these men, regardless of scriptural support for those practices (whatever it is you are against)

It occurs to me we are using a different language, so to speak. If I want a scriptural basis for everything I do in worship and practice, and you rely on personal revelation or movement of the Spirit; disregarding scripture as being corrupted by “men” or “tradition” and so on, then we are doomed to speak past each other, regardless of good intentions.

I do want to offer this advice, for whatever it’s worth. I’ve noticed some comments that I find troubling. The first is the claim of belonging to the one “true way”. That is a common statement among heretical groups.

Just to be clear, I’m not accusing you of being a heretic. I firmly believe all Christians should be convinced in their own minds, but also show an abundance of grace toward those who disagree on non-essential issues.

The second is accusing those who follow a traditional church organization as being deceived by Satan. This is inflammatory at best and dangerous at worst. Don’t expect civil discussion if that accusation is asserted.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

I have never said Satan is involved in traditional religious systems but some folks like-minded will assert otherwise.

I do agree we speak a different language on this issue -- so let's just agree to disagree.

If those still comfortable in the "system" will label me a heretic -- then so be it. The "system" centuries ago persecuted and murdered saints refusing to kneel to the "system". Those of us who centuries ago were called out of the "system" never persecuted or murdered anyone still trapped in the "system". We have been called heretics for a long, long time. Naming folks who buck the religious norms as heretical allows the system to brand them as untrustworthy and dangerous. That way they hope the masses still asleep in the "system" will not listen to what heretics have to say. The "system" has rigorously protected itself via church authorities' declarations and appeals to doctrine agreed upon long ago. It's a juggernaut rolling headlong in millennia of self-imposed blindness and rigid traditions. No wonder people are leaving organized religion in droves. Personally, I believe this Pandemic has served to slow the juggernaut down. That might help Christians to consider real alternatives to old-time religion like grandpa did it -- in the new normal.

 

[canadyjd]

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

I know, I said I'd leave the thread, but Seeker did not even acknowledge that (must be really mad at me ), so I'm back just for a minute to leave a quote from Watchman Nee which describes succinctly his Keswick theology:

"First, after one is saved he should seek for proper knowledge of the Bible. Second, he should desire to make progress in the spiritual life, such as victory, holiness, perfect love, and so forth. This is very very important. Third, we should be fervent in winning souls. Fourth, we should trust in God with such singleness of faith that we may see God working miracles" (The Latent Power of the Soul. New York: CLC, 1972, p. 64).

It's odd to me that Seeker, though once again touting his allegiance to Nee, has not answered a single one of my posts about Nee and his evangelism and miraculous answers to prayer, etc. Also, Seeker ignored my query about Nee's Keswick theology. Strange. (Does he know what Keswick is? Just asking. )

 

[canadyjd]

I have never said Satan is involved in traditional religious systems but some folks like-minded will assert otherwise.

I do agree we speak a different language on this issue -- so let's just agree to disagree.

If those still comfortable in the "system" will label me a heretic -- then so be it. The "system" centuries ago persecuted and murdered saints refusing to kneel to the "system". Those of us who centuries ago were called out of the "system" never persecuted or murdered anyone still trapped in the "system". We have been called heretics for a long, long time. Naming folks who buck the religious norms as heretical allows the system to brand them as untrustworthy and dangerous. That way they hope the masses still asleep in the "system" will not listen to what heretics have to say. The "system" has rigorously protected itself via church authorities' declarations and appeals to doctrine agreed upon long ago. It's a juggernaut rolling headlong in millennia of self-imposed blindness and rigid traditions. No wonder people are leaving organized religion in droves. Personally, I believe this Pandemic has served to slow the juggernaut down. That might help Christians to consider real alternatives to old-time religion like grandpa did it -- in the new normal.

You did reference Satan in your first post and linked that influence to all dogma. In post #94, you quoted someone that specifically stated that organized religion is Satan’s idea.

You have stated religious leaders are deluded. You have stated Christians in traditional churches cannot fully experience God. You have dismissed scripture that supports traditional church structures as men’s ideas. You have admitted to not really knowing scripture but prefer to rely on visions, dreams and the subjective phrase of being “led by the Spirit.”

I have not called you a heretic but I do offer a warning that without a foundation of scripture, people are much more likely to be led astray.

One other bit of advice. At the risk of flattery to his face, John of Japan, imo, is an example of a Godly man striving to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus... in personal holiness, in personal commitment to love for the lost, in scholarly study of God’s Word.

You could learn a lot from him.

peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

You did reference Satan in your first post and linked that influence to all dogma. In post #94, you quoted someone that specifically stated that organized religion is Satan’s idea.

You have stated religious leaders are deluded. You have stated Christians in traditional churches cannot fully experience God. You have dismissed scripture that supports traditional church structures as men’s ideas. You have admitted to not really knowing scripture but prefer to rely on visions, dreams and the subjective phrase of being “led by the Spirit.”

I have not called you a heretic but I do offer a warning that without a foundation of scripture, people are much more likely to be led astray.

One other bit of advice. At the risk of flattery to his face, John of Japan, imo, is an example of a Godly man striving to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus... in personal holiness, in personal commitment to love for the lost, in scholarly study of God’s Word.

You could learn a lot from him.

peace to you

Thank you. Very kind and encouraging of you to say this. I'll keep striving.

 

[canadyjd]

Thank you. Very kind and encouraging of you to say this. I'll keep striving.

And I’ll keep reading your posts with great admiration. May God continue to bless your efforts.

peace to you

 

[SGO]

Dear Seeker,

Your self-entitled name seems apt because it appears you have not found for what you are seeking, making a law for yourself and "seeking" to entangle others.

 

[SGO]

Sorry, I was too harsh. Forgive me for my pride. I just think you were not satisfied for where God put you.

 

[Quantrill]

Actually I did, but apparently you did not get the point. I'll state it more plainly. A house church with only a few people does not have the resources to train large numbers of young people as in the church-located Bible college where I teach. Therefore they cannot have the wonderful testimony meeting that I described. Now if a house church has some kind of training program for young people to obey the Great Commission, they can have the same kind of blessings, only on a much smaller scale.

Does your house church train young people to obey the Great Commission? Have you sent out any missionaries, and do you support any missionaries?

I think it is great if house churches cooperate. When we started out as a house church in Yokohama many years ago, we cooperated with various other churches for camp, etc.

But then we grew because we obeyed the Lord and won some people to Christ. A house church should not remain small.

Thank you! That is exactly what I've been saying. If a house church obeys the Great Commission they will grow larger. Then the question is, what do they do to accommodate the larger meetings? They can find a rich person with a large room in the house, as some early churches did. Or, they can rent an office room or store front somewhere and graduate from being a house church.

Both of the churches I started in Japan began in our home. In Yokohama we lived in a very small apartment, as most Japanese do. When we could, we found an office space to meet. When I first baptized in Yokohama, I built my own baptistry in our home, and we baptized there. It was extremely crowded. Surely when a house church grows they will want to relocate out of the person's home.

You can send people out with missionary organizations if you and they feel they have a call for that. You can support them through that mission.

Once a house church gets to big, They can break up into another house church. They divide the people up in accordance with their various gifts in the Body so that both have the leadership and teaching and pastoral ability.

Quantrill

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning,
This thread will be closed no sooner than 10 am EST, / 7 am PST

 

[John of Japan]

You can send people out with missionary organizations if you and they feel they have a call for that. You can support them through that mission.

Once a house church gets to big, They can break up into another house church. They divide the people up in accordance with their various gifts in the Body so that both have the leadership and teaching and pastoral ability.

Quantrill

I agree with both of these points.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six hour warning,
This thread will be closed no sooner than 10 am EST, / 7 am PST

This thread is closed.