When Churchianity fails you . . .

Actually, the word "Go" in the original language is a Greek participle, πορευθεντες (poreuthentes), and can be translated "As you go," so you are right thus far. (I teach Greek.) However, the next word is "therefore," then comes the μαθητευσατε (matheteusate), "make disciples," which is in the imperative mood, and is thus a command. Again, most commentators will say that "Go" carries the imperative sense since it is followed by an imperative, though it is only a participle. Thus, we are commanded to witness for Christ and make disciples. Any house church (or other church) which does not obey the Great Commission and seek to win souls to Christ and reach out to other nations is sinning.

The same thing is true of Mark 16:15 where the "Go" is a participle, and "preach is an aorist imperative. In the Great Commmission in Luke 24, "Tarry" is in the aorist imperative, so we are commanded to pray and wait on God for His power. In John 20:22, "Receive" is imperative.

Witnessing for Christ and reaching the nations for Christ is not a casual preference, it is the direct command of our Lord Jesus Christ. So, does your house church support world evangelism? Have you ever been to another country to preach the Gospel? Our organized church (with a building) which you so disdain, has sent out missionaries to many countries, supports many more missionaries, and has a full time missions (assistant) pastor who travels to many different countries to encourage evangelism and church planting movements. Our pastor has been to many countries preaching the Gospel, and still visits various countries to preach. I have had many international students in my classes, who go back to their own countries after they graduate to reach their own countrymen.

Yet you despise us, judging from your OP. I'm pretty sure the Lord Jesus Christ does not.

Answer my posts or not, either way is fine. I'm not demanding answers.

 

Do you have a point here? If you are trying to intimate that I despise house churches, you are not paying attention. I started churches in my home twice in Japan, and I have advised a man I discipled in Japan to start one. I don't even despise house churches that sin by not reaching the lost for Christ. I would rebuke them for their disobedience, but if they love Jesus I'm on their side.

But you really should visit a mission field. If you know a missionary somewhere, visit them, take some delicacies or other items that they cannot get where they are, and be a blessing. Go out on evangelism with them. Meet the people they minister to. You will be incredibly blessed as you seek to bless them. It will change your life!

Watchman Nee would love it if you did this. (See my post #37.)

 

Ok, fair 'nough. First time meeting another out side of those previous circles who uses the term, which I allow for.

What would you like to discuss in this thread particularly? Leadership? Have you studied what scripture (KJB) says in regards leadership within the ekklesia (εκκλησια G1577)?

 

John I'm not a Baptist, I'm Catholic and disagree with few of Baptist teachings but I don't remember any Baptist teaching that says to BE Judgmental.

A good indication your in the right church is precisely might be packed with judgmental folks, even hypocrites and thieves. Make sure you divide the teachings from the people.

Think about it.... the irony of judgement-talism, They were judgmental towards you and you reflect it back , YOURS has got so bad that you've judge that group not worth sticking around.

"As staff there, I went on soul-winning visitations twice weekly among other duties, teaching, choir, JV soccer coach and so on ad nauseum"

1 corinthians 13
. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Be careful with that word "ad nauseum". Because a good Saint might call those things REWARDS rather than chores and obligations.

You are still in a great battle of "Judgmental". Every single problem you ever had in life involves blaming, fault-finding, finger-pointing, judgmental, criticism. There's a reason they call the Devil The ACCUSER. Test out going one day without blaming.

"God is not pleased with what men have done to His original idea of pure religion and His plan for the ekklesia."

Suppose you came back with God on your side? who can stop you?

Suppose man has NOT frustrated his original idea at all? Suppose his pure religion and church is doing just fine?

What if God pleaded for you to have mercy on those churches who first held your hand?

The funny thing about faith and sole reliance on God is it may involve faith and reliance on God.

 

Looks like I hit a nerve here.

1. Soul-winning: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.
2. Teaching, choir, soccer coach: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.
3. Supporting missions: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.
4. Attending seminars: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.
5. Short hair, low boot heels, no listening to popular music, etc.: legalism if done thinking it makes one holy, but righteous if done from an obedient heart, loving Jesus.

Actually, I really have not judged you. First of all, the only requirement I have listed is obeying the Great Commission. Now, I don't know what your house church does about that or doesn't do. You have not told me. However, since you object so strongly to simple obedience of the Great Commission, I suspect that you do nothing.

If simple obedience to Christ's command is legalism, let's not love God and our neighbor. That's His command, also. Let's not bother about worshipping idols or not. That's just a command of the Lord after all--it's legalism to insist on obeying it. And when He tells us not to commit adultery, even in our heart, that's okay. If we insist on that, well, it's legalism.

I told you clearly that the Great Commission is an imperative in the Greek, when you said it was not. Do you think that this command of Christ is optional? If not, what is your house church doing about it?

Glad to hear this. If true, then maybe you should tone down your rhetoric. You jump on me as being a legalist simply because I advocate obeying the last command of Christ. But only God knows the heart.

Legalism is a heart matter, not a matter of outward living. You don't know the heart of anyone at that independent Baptist church you left, and you don't know my heart. If you think you know the heart of anyone but yourself, then you have not divested yourself of your former judgmentalism

Christ is not interested in the slightest about these things. He does not judge us on the basis of whether or not we have buildings, gyms, or anything physical. There are no Scriptures that even hint that He cares about those physical things. He said, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20-21).

But He won't ask, "Did you proclaim me to the lost and dying who are headed for Hell, as I commanded you to?" Really?

God's plan for the ekklesia is very clear in Scripture. It is to glorify God through His beloved Son Christ: "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21). Now, if you are not proclaiming Christ to the lost and dying around you, how are you glorifying Jesus much?

The best way in the world to glorify God through Christ is to tell others about Him. If you are married, do you brag on your wife? If you have children, do you brag on them? Then why not brag on Christ, who I trust is your Best Friend?

Tell you what, if you truly think that witnessing for Christ and obeying the Great Commission to get the Gospel of Christ to the whole world is legalism, here is what you should do. Cut the whole book of Acts out of your Bible, except for that one passage about meeting the needs of widows in Acts 6:1-6. Then you won't have to imitate Paul and Peter and the others who worked so hard and suffered so much to get the Gospel out all through the book of Acts--not to mention Christ, who "came into the world to save sinners" (1 Tim. 1:15), not to feed orphans and widows, though that is the right thing to do.

 

Just a word about the tithe here. Bro. Patterson has mentioned it once or twice. He may be surprised to know that I agree with him that theologically the tithe is an Old Testament institution. It is not commanded in the NT, though Christ does speak favorably about it (Matt. 23:23). My own grandfather, a very influential fundamentalist evangelist and theologian, taught that the NT does not teach storehouse tithing. However, here is what people who preach the tithe (and those who oppose it) often miss: in this dispensation, God does not just ask 10%, He demands everything.

Christ did not say, "Take up just 10% of your cross and follow me just 10% of the time, and you only have to give me 10% of your money." He said, "Take up your cross and follow me." That means total and complete dedication, even unto death. My son preached in our chapel this morning and he said it well. If we put up anything else next to God as "I need this..." or "God and this," we are idolators. And this brilliant young man has given everything to Christ, literally. He lives very frugally in a one room apartment (is not yet married), though he has two master's degrees and a PhD. His car is broken down and he won't fix it because of the cost, so right now he often walks several miles to and from work. (We pick him up in the mornings.) However, he recently received $3000 for writing a digital commentary for Logos, and gave it all away to missionaries--all of it!!

It's pretty easy just to sit in a pew (or a chair, if it is a house church), and never do anything and never give anything. Bro. Patterson is right in saying that all believers should be serving Christ, not just a full time clergy. In fact, it is the stated task of the NT preacher to train the believers to serve Christ, "the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).

 

Brother Patterson, are you knowledgeable about the Keswick theology that Nee embraced? That is what was taught growing up and what we teach here.

Again, for the record, Watchman Nee was on fire for Christ and the winning of souls to Him from the time he was born again. His biographer wrote about Nee the high school student, "Not content with witnessing in the school, a handful of these high-school boys began to carry the gospel out into the town, making use of Sundays and fesstivals and the frequent student strikes as occasions for this. They procured a loud and resonant gong, and with it went singing through the streets, proclaiming to all who would pause an listen the good news of a living Saviour" (Against the Tide, by Angus Kinnear, p. 45). I would love to see a photo here on the BB of you and your little flock out street witnessing like Watchman Nee!

Here is a photo of me in Japan with my good buddy Usuki, a yakuza gang leader and drug pusher who trusted Christ as Savior. I met him while out on street evangelism, and did Bible studies with him for months until Christ gloriously saved him!

 

This is Ushiro, the enforcer of the gang, who also trusted Christ as Savior. Looks scary, huh?

 

I didn't say anything about 'clergy' vs 'laity'. I asked if you had studied about "Leadership" in scripture.

It seems you are stuck on a confusion, that only exists in your experience or mind, that is not actually present as a functional role in scripture.

Do you accept the 'offices'/positions, even the order, that God gives in the ekklesia? For instance, Ephesians 4:11, as seen working in Acts 15, &c?

 

Yeah, the guy in the tie is absolutely frightening! Ties are the scariest thing ever! Reminds me of a serpent around my neck, choking out my life, and they even look shiny and have what appear to be patterns, like most snakes. Scary, scary, scary. The Asian guy, looks rather tame, compared to that tie.

 

Yikes! Yeah, the guy in the tie is awful! And he doesn't even like ties!

 

Blest be the tie that binds?

 

Ouch! The tie that chokes--they all do.

 

Just got back with the wife from delivering two special gift baskets to veterans. Both were invited to watch our livestream, and thus hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. One was Russ, an old friend. The other turned out to have Covid, but I gave him the basket anyway. So, in a small way I hazarded my life for the cause of Jesus Christ. But not nearly like the great Chinese evangelist, Watchman Nee, who spent years in a Communist prison for the cause of Christ, dying there--one of my heroes of the faith.

It will be great to meet men and women like him in Heaven. Try reading China's Book of Martyrs, by Paul Hattaway. We risk so little for Christ in America.

 

Contemplate and explain what this bible verse is about......NEW TESTAMENT:

JUDE 1

8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.


I'd like to particularly emphasize Rebellion of Korah ---> 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.


You can read the whole story of Korah in NUMBERS 16.

Their objection is exactly your objection. --> "Still, there is not to be pastors, ministers, priests, etc, etc and then the people."

Numbers 16
3They assembled together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone far enough, for all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is in their midst; so why do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?”

They claimed equal in priestly duties the same idea that clergy was unnecessary.

Likewise there is a passing down ordination of laying on hands

1 timothy 4

14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

1 timothy 5

22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

These things bestowed by the priesthood how do you receive them without any link?

See I can't as a new Christian and born again bestow these things on myself.

There is a clergy and they do have some authority. That doesn't mean you may be forced against your good conscience since that is the higher authority the voice of God.

You can't just start a NEW FRESH CHURCH/RELIGION. These things are passed down


Listen to yourself for a moment:
"I still don't believe the writers of what is now accepted as the New Testament could ever imagine how the believing ekklesia, of all the past centuries and now today, still follow letter by letter what was written many millennia ago. They would be shocked. They would wonder why haven't the writings of believers down through the ages not been as respected as what we wrote? Why do you "worship" our writings so? Doesn't God still speak the same way today? Why haven't you taken the time to look into the God-inspired writings down through all the ages? Why have you closed the bible up and canonized it? Who decided these 66 books were ALL God has to say? You have unknowingly made the bible a thing of worship, an idol and a fetish! Wake up to the eternal NOW of what God is saying to the ekklesia."


Who decided these 66 books were ALL God has to say? or better Who decided these 66 books were things God said at all?

Imagine we both were new, hey lets decide to be Christian. How do you even know a thing about it? Look at these guys over here with their crazy rituals, or these other ones with judgmental leaders. Oh all these folks are crazy but hold on look at that book they parade around lets grab that thing.

No one in their right mind from the outside looking in to a religion they don't agree with would out of the blue snap grab THEIR writings and then start their own thing.

You don't accept authority of people, don't accept authority of scriptures, where do you even start? Why not start with a Muslim Quaran or book of Mormon or anything for that matter.


1 corinthians 12

14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20But now there are many members, but one body. 21And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts.