Featured Calvinism Question : How does God work through the Soul?

God works in us thru the new nature and the Holy Spirit once saved!

 

Salvation (going from “Despicable Me” to “Highway to Heaven”) is a three stage process and is important not to conflate the stages.

1. Justification: The opening gambit in God’s chess game involves a person that is incapable of believing or obeying God or even understanding spiritual truths. We are “Totally Depraved”, which does not mean that we are all sociopaths, but it does mean that our physical body craves sensual sins, our minds are naturally drawn towards sinful thoughts and our soul (inner self) desires self control rather than yielding to a creator. So the gospel is foolishness to every part of our being and contrary to our nature. The solution is for God to DO SOMETHING to radically transform that nature. I believe that Ephesians 2:1-10 describes that “something” that God does. Justification begins with Christ dying on a cross and ends with our receiving the Holy Spirit.

2. Sanctification: I don’t know if it has caught your attention, but Christians are not perfect. Frankly, most Christians are really quite far from being perfect. I can say with extreme confidence that I am included among those much further from perfect than I should be given how many years I have been at this Christian walk thing. With that being said, I am reminded of a great saying: “God loves me just as I am, but He loves me too much to leave me like this.” Or put another way ... “I may not be what I should be, but Praise God, I am not what I once was!” From the moment the Holy Spirit takes up residence, he starts cleaning house. The process continues until we breathe our last breath.

3. Glorification: After we shuffle off our mortal coil, we finally get to leave all of the “mess” of the world behind us and enter the gates of Heaven as Christlike as He deserves us to be.


So the stuff about “Total Depravity” only applies to the ability of natural man (fallen sinners) to get to the starting line of Justification without help from God. It is a non-issue for ongoing Sanctification, because God has taken away our Total Depravity when we are “born again” (from above).

 

Even as a lost sinner we had a free will, its just that we were strictly limited in what we could desire and want to do!

 

First, I am a Calvinist (Particular Baptist variety), so I was not focused on the question of Regeneration preceding Justification, but rather I was focusing on your use of “sanctification” and my knowledge that Lutherans, Catholics and Baptists often use the same terms, but have very different meanings for those terms. Total Depravity only applies to man’s Justification, it is not part of how God sanctifies us.

I will have to leave it to God to give the definitive answer, but here is my best shot at explaining as much as I understand:

Free Will is another term that different folks like to define in different ways, so depending on your definition man either has free will or does not have free will (and both are completely obvious).

Can you choose to wear a red shirt or a blue shirt, or does God compel your choice of what color shirt to wear? It is patently obvious that man has the free will to choose the color of his shirt. An omniscient God already knows what color shirt you will choose to wear and has included that choice as part of His eternal plan. While the color of a shirt is a silly example, a less silly equivalent example is “can you choose to lie or tell the truth, or does God compel your choice?” Suddenly the answer matters. If man has no free will, then God is the source of evil.

Can you choose to flap your arms and fly away? It is a silly question with the obvious answer that man does not have the free will to do what is physically impossible. A less silly example would be “can you choose to live a sinless life and earn salvation?” If man has the free will to “be perfect”, then the death of Christ was unnecessary. However scripture teaches us that no one is without sin, so it is impossible for you to be perfect. Men do not have the free will to act contrary to our “human nature”.

So let us now look at your question and a fallen man (John Doe). John was born under the curse of Adam, meaning that he was born into a sinful world full of temptations to entice him away from God. John was born with a flesh that loves the forbidden touch and is easily excited by the lust of his eyes. John has a mind that is quick to think in worldly human logic terms. If John sees something that he likes, John’s mind is naturally inclined to want it. If someone hurts John, his mind instinctively wants to hurt them back. John has a soul that desperately struggles to be master of its own destiny, to dominate over others, to rule and be served. This is John’s innate “fallen nature”, his natural man. This is the “depraved” (bent, warped) body from which springs the lust of the eyes, the “depraved” mind that finds “bless those that curse you” to be foolishness, and the “depraved” soul that refuses to submit to any LORD and demands to be master of its own destiny.

John Doe has the Free Will to do anything that he wants, and the “depraved” nature that wants nothing to do with the foolish things of God. So John exercises his free will (which is in reality a will enslaved to sin) to freely and willingly choose to sin. Thus John continuously stores up for himself more and more wrath from a Holy God. If God did nothing, all of the John and Jane Doe’s in the world would freely choose sin and justly end in eternal damnation.

God created mankind to worship Him and to obediently serve Him. Scripture says that is nothing more than our just service ... that is what we are SUPPOSED TO DO. It is the reason people exist. So God was not prepared to do nothing. God chose to do something.

John Doe was incapable of freely choosing to come to God, because John would never willingly act contrary to his nature and do the opposite of what his body, mind and soul all told him was ‘right’. So God DREW (John 6:44) John Doe to Himself and created life where only death had dwelled (Eph 2:1-10).

You already have lots of really good books by really smart Theologians on all of the scripture and theory about the transformation that happens as one goes from being “sinner” to “saved”, so I will not attempt to discuss the transformation at REGENERATION/JUSTIFICATION in detail. I will just offer a simple personal experiential narrative.

Before, I was angry and vengeful. I had no use for any “invisible unicorn” god and no belief in any objective morality. The only law is “don’t get caught”.
Immediately after, there was a radical transformation in my worldview and my personality. It was like a light had been lit and I could perceive things I was unable to perceive before.

I believe that God removes the chains that bind our body, mind and soul as slaves to sin when He saves us. The Ordo Salutis is really only a theoretical and logical construct. In reality salvation seems to unfold uniquely for each individual with some events instantaneous and simultaneous and others slowly unfolding over years. Before salvation men are free to choose anything they desire, but men only desire is for sin. After salvation men are free to choose anything they desire, and a war wages within us between our old desire for sin and our new desire for holiness. As time goes on and the Holy Spirit continues to work, the desire for holiness grows and the desire to sin shrivels.

“it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” [Philippians 2:13 NASB]

 

Mans will is not free.Free will is a false philosophical term.
Once saved,we are free to serve God, never free to sin.

 

I don't really get into these discussions much here anymore, but in regard to "God's sovereign work", I have a couple quotes I’d like to share regarding, "what God wants it to bring about" which leads to views of “veiled determinism” and how it can differ from what actually does come about. I would refer to these differences hinging on one's perception of the meaning of Divine Sovereignty in which I often categorize them between the differences in one’s views of either: “Divine Deterministic Sovereignty” or “Divine Providential Sovereignty” in relationship to predestination.


William Lane Craig explains, "It is up to God whether we find ourselves in a world in which we are predestined, but it is up to us whether we are predestined in the world in which we find ourselves."

Keathley explains a scenario that fits in with the above using the ambulance analogy. “Imagine you wake up and discover that you are in an ambulance being transported to the emergency room. You clearly require serious medical help. If you do nothing, you will be delivered to the hospital. However, if for whatever reason you demand to be let out, the driver will comply. He may express his concern, warn you of the consequences, but he will abide by your wishes. You receive no credit for being taken to the hospital, you receive all the blame for getting out. This is a picture of the Molinist view of salvation.”


As I'm sure you know much of what guides the views of Pre-Determinism rests on views of Divine Foreknowledge at its roots. In regard to this perspective I would say that scripture shows through Counterfactuals of Creaturely Freedoms that all things are not pre-determined according to God's foreknowledge in creation as being logical. This is where I come onto agreement with Molinism, by my perspective, their view is merely expressing these things (LFW) are logically possible within the type of knowledge God has (a type of middle knowledge, rather than limiting DFK and putting into a theological box, and also holding to the importance of not to exclude from Him knowing all things) and giving explanations how this (logical conclusion) can be observed.

Just my 2 cents of how God works through the soul of volitional creatures with the attributes of sense, reason and intellect who have also gained the attribute of the knowledge of good and evil through their own doing because of the free will ability (an ability never taken away) they were Divinely designed with and blessed to have from the beginning of creation.

 

By that standard, I suspect that I have never met anyone that is “saved”, because I have never met anyone that does not sin (miss the mark) because they cannot sin.

 

I did not say they cannot sin
I said they are not "free "to sin.
Gal5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another

 

Thx for a very good post!

The meaning of the Theological term Total Depravity is important here.

From my understanding it refers to the extent of our total being that has been corrupted by sin (both original and personal) and not to the depth of that depravity...

Our mind, will, emotions, soul/spirit and body (anything I missed out?) are now effected by the Fall of Adam and Eve into sin, which is compounded by ou personal sins during our lives.

There is nothing in us that maintains the original sinless perfection of the pre-Fall state Adam and Eve were created in prior to our Salvation.

However, the idea that Total Depravity implies that fallen human beings are as depraved as can be and can do nothing but pure evil and wickedness all of the time, seems to contravene a lot of Scriptual teaching, including Paul's teaching in Romans 2:14.

"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves..."
Romans 2:14
New American Standard Bible 1977

 

Welcome to the BB.
God restores us as true Image bearers, In .Eph4

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

In Romans 8:28-39 the golden chain of redemption shows how God has predestined us , those elected by God to be conformed to the image of the Son.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Thx for the welcome but not sure what your Scriptual quote is meaning in the context of this thread. BTW I'm well aware of the Scriptures you have cited but don't understand why you are quoting them. I hope not as "Proof Texts"....said in love.

Are you referring to my comment on Total Depravity? If so, what is your understanding of Total Depravity? Also, do you believe that the so-called state of Sinless Perfection can be achieved in this life?

PS I haven't had time to read all the comments posted on this thread so apologies if you have answered these questions already.

 

No sinless perfection before glorification.
From a Baptist Catechism with Commentary by W.R. Downing
Quest. 38: What were the results of Adam’s sin? Ans: Adam spiritually died. His act of sin was imputed to all his posterity. Every human being has also inherited his sinful nature, which expresses itself constantly under the reigning power of sin. Rom. 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. See also: Gen. 5:3; Rom. 5:12, 18–19; 1 Cor. 15:21–22. COMMENTARY

Adam died spiritually immediately upon his act of disobedience, i.e., his relationship to God, his personality and his nature underwent a substantial change of relationship. His personality was originally under the control of a righteous intelligence, but came under the sway of the physical nature and its appetites. This sinful shift in the personality can only begin to be set aside by
saving grace (Jn. 3:3, 5; Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:1–3; 9–10). See Question 164. Adam stood as Representative Man, and therefore when he sinned in apostatizing from God, the whole human race fell in him as their federal head. This is called “original sin,” or immediate imputation. Even if a person could begin from any point in his or her life and live perfectly without sin—even if this were possible—he or she would still be utterly condemned because of original sin [the imputation of Adam’s transgression]. The condemnation and guilt of sin are thus inescapable. See Question 66. When Adam and Eve, as sinners, had children, they, too, were sinners (Gen. 5:3). The defacement of the Divine image in man was passed to all of Adam’s posterity by both imputation and inheritance. Thus, all human beings not only have original sin, but also a sinful nature and so are prone to personal sin. The inheritance of Adam’s sinful nature and proneness to transgression is termed “‘mediate’ imputation” (Rom. 3:9–18). Both the immediate and mediate imputation of sin are awful realties.

Every subsequent human being consequently evidences his or her sinful state by personal sins in disposition, inclination, motivation, thought, word and deed as being under its reigning power. Because all human beings are sinners, all stand in need of salvation from both the reigning power of sin and from its immediate and ultimate consequences. It is not only noteworthy, but absolutely vital to understand that, even with the curse, there came the promise of a redeemer (Gen. 3:15) [the protevangelium, or first promise of the gospel]. This Divine revelation to the serpent as a challenge and to man as a promise demonstrates constantly that God is a God of purpose, who delights in mercy and glories in grace (Isa. 45:22; Jn. 3:16–18)!
https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/grace/01wd_depravity.mp3
https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/grace/01rm_depravity32kbs.mp3

 

"No sinless perfection before glorification."

Yes, we are in agreement.

Sinless Perfection will be achieved at our Glorification. I hope not too many Christians would still argue that it is achievable in this life, only sects and cults still do as far as I'm aware. Till then we battle "the world, the flesh and the devil" in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Still not sure of your opinion on Total Depravity. Are you saying it refers to the depth of our Fallen Nature or to the extent?

Maybe I should start a separate thread on Total Depravity as it is broad and may be considered going off-topic here. My understanding comes largely from the teachings of Drs. Bruce Milne and Millard J. Ericsson, both Baptists BTW but that was not intentional.

 

We are not as bad as we could be, but it is total in that all parts of man are affected, The heart, mind, will, emotions are not able to welcome special revelation correctly. Men can be religious but there will worship is rejected by God.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


The Canons of the Synod of Dort

 

Yes, we are in agreement.

Which is the point I was arguing for earlier, but perhaps, I didn't state it that well. So we agree!

I need to do some things now so checking out but have a great day and may the Lord bless ya heaps, as you seek to do His will, through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

 

Thank you for the interaction, If I can of any help let me know.

 

Thx and all good.

I'm writing from Australia BTW and it's 4:40pm here and just need to finish up some things. Enjoy your day!