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Featured Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, Mar 4, 2020.

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  1. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    The doctrine of “soul sleep” is a fairly recent invention, and certainly wasn't believed by the Early Church. It was developed in its current form by Jehovah’s Witness founder Charles Taze Russell, at the time a Seventh-Day Adventist, as a creative construct to support his denial of the existence of Hell. A young Russell found himself attracted to the “conditional immortality” teachings of George Storrs and William Miller. They taught eternal life for believers only, and immediate “soul extinction” at time of death for the unbeliever. Russell carried it a step further, however, and invented a derived doctrine which he called “soul sleep.”

    Russell, by his own admission under court oath, was not at all schooled in the original languages (specified in his testimony as Hebrew and Greek), yet before his congregants, he attempted to make use of Hebrew and Greek dictionaries (in a clumsy, unscholarly manner) in order to feign a deeper knowledge of the Scriptures than he actually possessed. His early influences were Calvinist (Presbyterian and Congregationalist), nuanced later by the teachings of William Miller and others in that Adventist sect. Pretty late in the day to be developing new 'Christian' doctrine, IMHO
     
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Your first error is that Charles Taze Russel was never a Seventh-day Adventist. Your second error is to merely attribute the doctrine to Seventh-day Adventists, ignoring all of the statements in the OT and NT on the matter, as far back as Genesis, but according to sister White's own testimony, she came to understand the matter of death as sleep later from others and studied in the scripture, as she was at the first a Methodist, which held the Romish doctrine at the time and switched when studied. Thirdly:

    As for the non-immortality of the soul, the ECF (easily confused fellows) were 2/3's conditionalists, with the primary believers.in the immortality of the soul coming from Alexandria, Egypt (though not all, and not always) and in Rome.

    Video link to Church Fathers who were Annhilationists:

    Church Fathers who were Conditionalists | Rethinking Hell

    Immortality in the early church. A comprehensive study in e-Book form:

    http://bryangrayministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Immortality-in-the-Early-Church.doc

    Justin Martyr on the Hellenistic error of the immortality of the soul:

    DIALOGUE TO TRYPHO CHAPTER V -- THE SOUL IS NOT IN ITS OWN NATURE IMMORTAL.

    "'These philosophers [Referring to Greek philosophers who teach that the soul is immortal] know nothing, then, about these things; for they cannot tell what a soul is.'

    "'It does not appear so.'

    "'Nor ought it to be called immortal; for if it is immortal, it is plainly unbegotten.'

    "'It is both unbegotten and immortal, according to some who are styled Platonists.'

    Source: Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

    Church fathers who were Annihilationists

    Irenaeus - Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 34)

    And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.​

    Athanasius the Great - On the Incarnation of the Word, Chapter 6

    The human race then was wasting, God’s image was being effaced, and His work ruined. Either, then, God must forego His spoken word by which man had incurred ruin; or that which had shared in the being of the Word must sink back again into destruction, in which case God’s design would be defeated.

    Athanasius the Great - Discourse 3 Against the Arians, Chapter 29

    For it beseemed that the flesh, corruptible as it was, should no longer after its own nature remain mortal, but because of the Word who had put it on, should abide incorruptible. For as He, having come in our body, was conformed to our condition, so we, receiving Him, partake of the immortality that is from Him.

    Athanasius the Great - On the Incarnation of the Word, Chapter 4

    "We have seen that to change the corruptible to incorruption was proper to none other than the Savior Himself, Who in the beginning made all things out of nothing; that only the Image of the Father could re-create the likeness of the Image in men, that none save our Lord Jesus Christ could give to mortals immortality, and that only the Word Who orders all things and is alone the Father's true and sole-begotten Son could teach men about Him and abolish the worship of idols. But beyond all this, there was a debt owing which must needs be paid; for, as I said before, all men were due to die. Here, then, is the second reason why the Word dwelt among us, namely that having proved His Godhead by His works, He might offer the sacrifice on behalf of all, surrendering His own temple to death in place of all, to settle man's account with death and free him from the primal transgression."

    Athanasius the Great - On the Incarnation of the Word, Chapter 4

    For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. 5. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who IS, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption.

    Ignasius - The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter 18

    For this end did the Lord allow the ointment to be poured upon His head, John 12:7 that He might breathe immortality into His Church. Be not anointed with the bad odour of the doctrine of the prince of this world; let him not lead you away captive from the life which is set before you. And why are we not all prudent, since we have received the knowledge of God, which is Jesus Christ? Why do we foolishly perish, not recognising the gift which the Lord has of a truth sent to us?

    Ignasius - The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians

    Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be.​
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    It was only later with Tertulian and Augustine that really formulated the Latin Church's immortality of the soul, from Greek (Pagan Philosophy)

    "...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul

    "... For
    positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immortality

    Platonist influences of Church Fathers like Augustine and Tertullian

    "Intellectually, Augustine represents the most influential adaptation of the ancient Platonic tradition with Christian ideas that ever occurred in the Latin Christian world. Augustine received the Platonic past in a far more limited and diluted way than did many of his Greek-speaking contemporaries, but his writings were so widely read and imitated throughout Latin Christendom that his particular synthesis of Christian, Roman, and Platonic traditions defined the terms for much later tradition and debate." - Saint Augustine | Biography, Philosophy, Major Works, & Facts

    The utterance of Plato, the most pure and bright in all philosophy, scattering the clouds of error . . .” - Augustine of Hippo

    "Chap. III. - Some Truths Held Even by the Heathen, They Were, However, More Often Wrong Both in Religious Opinions and in Moral Practice. The Heathen Not to Be Followed in Their Ignorance of the Christian Mystery. The Heretics Perversely Prone to Follow Them.

    One may no doubt be wise in the things of God, even from one’s natural powers, but only in witness to the truth, not in maintenance of error; (only) when one acts in accordance with, not in opposition to, the divine dispensation. For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held by many; the knowledge of our God is possessed by all. I may use, therefore, the opinion of a Plato, when he declares, Every soul is immortal.” I may use also the conscience of a nation, when it attests the God of gods. I may, in like manner, use all the other intelligences of our common nature, when they pronounce God to be a judge. “God sees,” (say they)(say they); and, “I commend you to God.” (compare the

    De Test. Anim. ii., and De Anim. xlii.) But when they say, What has undergone death is dead,” and, “Enjoy life whilst you live,” and, “After death all things come to an end, even death itself;” then I must remember both that “the heart of man is ashes,” (Isa_44:20) according to the estimate of God, and that the very “Wisdom of the world is foolishness,” (as the inspired word) pronounces it to be. (1Co_1:20, 1Co_3:19) Then, if even the heretic seek refuge in the depraved thoughts of the vulgar, or the imaginations of the world, I must say to him: Part company with the heathen, O heretic! for although you are all agreed in imagining a God, yet while you do so in the name of Christ, so long as you deem yourself a Christian, you are a different man from a heathen: give him back his own views of things, since he does not himself learn from yours. Why lean upon a blind guide, if you have eyes of your own? Why be clothed by one who is naked, if you have put on Christ? Why use the shield of another, when the apostle gives you armour of your own? It would be better for him to learn from you to acknowledge the resurrection of the flesh, than for you from him to deny it; because if Christians must needs deny it, it would be sufficient if they did so from their own knowledge, without any instruction from the ignorant multitude. He, therefore, will not be a Christian who shall deny this doctrine which is confessed by Christians; denying it, moreover, on grounds which are adopted by a man who is not a Christian. Take away, indeed, from the heretics the wisdom which they share with the heathen, and let them support their inquiries from the Scriptures alone: they will then be unable to keep their ground. For that which commends men’s common sense is its very simplicity, and its participation in the same feelings, and its community of opinions; and it is deemed to be all the more trustworthy, inasmuch as its definitive statements are naked and open, and known to all. Divine reason, on the contrary, lies in the very pith and marrow of things, not on the surface, and very often is at variance with appearances." - Tertullian

    (1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

    (2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

    "...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

    (Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).​
     
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    The 'new doctrine' was the Platonist (and Neo (New)) schools of the classical Greek philosophers and immortal soul and eternal torment theology, but yet, scripture, and its doctrine of sleep, existed long before them:

    Deu_31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.​

    Psa_13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;​

    etc.
     
  5. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Methodists basically bow out:

    United Methodist theologian and historian Ted Campbell notes, “we reject the idea of purgatory but beyond that maintain silence on what lies between death and the last judgment.” (Methodist Doctrine: The Essentials)​

    Yet, within 'Orthodoxy' (which has many doctrines which conflict as held by individuals), but one such doctrine as held by some within is:

    "... Lazar Puhalo in particular for his theory of the insensibility of the soul “in some state of sleep” ..."
     
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    That the dead are figuratively in a state of sleep, awaiting the resurrection, "was the prevalent opinion until as late as the 5th century" (D.P. Walker, The Decline of Hell: Seventeenth-Century Discussions of Eternal Torment, 1964, p. 35). - Jesus Christ and Biblical Writers Compare Death to Sleep

    Even Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant Reformation, wrote at one point: "It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment . . . On what authority can it be said that the souls of the dead may not sleep . . . in the same way that the living pass in profound slumber the interval between their downlying at night and their uprising in the morning?" (Letter to Nicholas Amsdorf, Jan. 13, 1522, quoted in Jules Michelet, The Life of Luther, translated by William Hazlitt, 1862, p. 133).
     
  7. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Charles Henry Welch (Dispensationalist)

    “... Our study of the Word drove us to the conclusion that the soul of man is not inherently immortal, that immortality is a gift in grace conferred at the resurrection; that the dead are asleep, that they awake at the resurrection, and that there is no conscious intermediate state.” (Welch, 107-108) ...” - CHARLES H. WELCH AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY

    E. W. Bullinger (Anglican, Ultradispensationalist):

    The Rich Man and Lazarus - BibleUnderstanding Ministry
     
  8. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Amen
     
  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    “... A new and thoroughly researched study of the rise and development of Christian Mortalism, also known as Conditional Immortality or Soul Sleep, in England during the Reformation and Post-Reformation periods. Dr Bryan Ball traces the origins of the belief in Continental Reformation thought, and then in the writings of Wycliffe and Tyndale, and its growth and development in the writings of many other advocates, including Hobbes, Overton, Milton, Locke, Edmund Law, John Biddle, Peter Peckard, Francis Blackburne, among many others, concluding with the views of Joseph Priestley. In the context of being a historical study, this book challenges the traditional doctrine of the soul's innate immortality. Having previously written on English eschatological thought, Dr Ball sets out to demonstrate here that this alternative view of man's essential nature and ultimate destiny was held across a wide theological spectrum in English thought for at least three centuries. While dealing with a subject that is at times difficult, the book has been intentionally written in a readable, accessible style, and will appeal to a much wider audience than the purely academic. The book provides important background information for the growing interest in the mortalist point of view in contemporary theological and historical circles. ...” - The Soul Sleepers - Christian Mortalism from Wycliffe to Priestley, by Bryan W. Ball (2008) - The Soul Sleepers
     
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "...
    "... 1354 'The belief that the soul goes to sleep at the death of the body to await eventual resurrection was held by both Martin Luther and William Tyndale', Watts, 'The Dissenters 1: From the Reformation to the French Revolution', Volume 1, p. 119 (1985).

    1355 'The Italian Anabaptist movement has been traced to the leadership of Camillo Renato, a Sicilian scholar who escaped from imminent danger in Italy to settle in southern Switzerland and who, in the 1540s, held the position "that the soul of man is by natural mortal, and dies with the body, to be raised at the last day in another form, though the souls of the wicked will perish."', Simmonds, 'Milton Studies', Volume 8, p. 193 (1975)

    1356 'One might add that the sleep of the dead was affirmed by the Hungarian reformer, Matyas-Biro Devay (ca. 1500 - ca. 1545).', Vauchez, 'The History of Conditionalism', Andrews University Seminary Studies (4.2. 198-199), 1966.

    1357 'Servetus also believed the soul to be but mortal, with immortality bestowed only by the grace of Christ at the resurrection. in other words, he also held to Conditional Immortality.', ibid., p.115.

    1358 'In Poland and Lithuania the mortalist cause was advanced by Laelius Socinus, who left among his papers a work concerning the resurrection, De Resurrectione Corporurm, which, "following Camillo Renato ... attempted to replace the V Lateran teaching of the natural immortality of the soul".', Ball, 'The Soul Sleepers: Christian Mortalism from Wycliffe to Priestly',p.36 (2008)

    1359 'Faustus himself came to hold the Paduan view of man's natural mortality and the death of the soul with the body,', ibid., p.37.

    ..." - Living On The Edge Challenges To Faith (Reference Work Series Volume 1), by Jonathan Burke, page 307 - Living On The Edge
     
  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "...

    1368 'Harold Fisch calls it 'a major current of seventeenth century protestant ideology'.', Thomson, 'Bodies of thought: science, religion, and the soul in early Enlightenment', p. 42 (2008)

    ...

    1370 'Mortalism, in some form or other, had been around quite a while before the seventeenth century, but for our purposes we can begin to investigate mortalism as it appeared at the time of the Reformation.', Brandon, 'The coherence of Hobbe's Leviathan: civil and religious authority combined', Continuum Studies in British Philosophy, p.65 (2007)

    1371 'we also know that such mortalist thought was fairly widespread prior to the seventeenth century.', ibid., p.66

    1372 'The status of the dead was among the most divisive issues of the early Reformation; it was also arguably the theological terrain over which in the reign of Henry VIII official reform travelled furthest and fastest.', Marshall, 'Beliefs and the Dead in Reformation England', p.47 (2002)

    1373 'In fact, during the Reformation both psycho-somnolence-the belief that the soul sleeps until the resurrection-and thnetopsychism-the belief that the body and soul die and then both rise again-were quite common', Conti, 'Religio Medici's Profession of Faith', in Barbour & Preston (eds.), 'Sir Thomas Browne: the world proposed', p.157 (2008).

    1374 'All this suggests that mortalism, and the fear of it, was widespread in England in the century after the Reformation. But the English Revolution, in particular, was a crucible out of which radical new ideas boiled. Mortalist ideas multiplied rapidly in the 1640s', Almond, 'Heaven and Hell in Enlightenment England', p.43 (1994).

    1375 'The most common form of seventeenth-century Christian mortalism claimed that the whole individual died and was insensible until the resurrection and judgement, when the whole individual would be resuscitated and enter on eternal life. There was no continuation of an immaterial part of the individual, no feeling, thought, or suffering before the final general resurrection.', Thomson, 'Bodies of thought: science, religion, and the soul in early Enlightenment', p.42 (2008).

    1376 'On the contrary, mortalist views - particularly of the sort which affirmed that the soul slept or died - were widespread in the Reformation period. George Williams has shown how prevalent mortalism was among the Reformation radicals.', Almond, [page 309-310] 'Heaven and Hell in Enlightenment England', p.38 (1994)

    1377 'The Baptists in Italy and France had at times adopted Soul Sleeping; such an association also existed in England, for we hear that in Kent and Sussex Baptists were linked to a sect known as the Soul Sleepers.', Burrell, 'The role of religion in modern European history', p.74 (1964).

    1378 'he [Edward Wightman] affirmed that the soul sleeps in the sleep of the first death as well as the body;', Vedder, 'A Short History of the Baptist', p.197 (1907).

    1379 'The Norwich minister Samuel Gardiner envisaged the dead 'sleep[ing] supinely in their lockers, careless and senseless of secular affaires'', Marshall, 'Beliefs and the dead in Reformation England', p.213 (2002).

    ...

    1381 'Another convinced adherent of moderate Puritan opinion, the poet George Wither, gave mortalism even more substantial support', Ball, 'The Soul Sleepers: Chritian Mortalism from Wycliffe to Priestly', p.73 (2008).

    1382 'The mortalist position, on the other hand, was defended in the Brevis disquisitio published by the Socinian Joachim Stegmann in 1637.', Mechoulan (ed.), 'La formazione storica della alterita: studi di storia della tolleranza nell'eta moderna offerti a Antonio Rotondo', Studi e testi per la storia della tolleranza in Europa nei secoli XVI-XVIII, number 5, p.1221 (2001).

    1383 'In 1644 he [Richard Overton] published a notorious tract, Mans Mortalitie, wherein he sought to prove, 'both theologically and philosophically, that whole man (as a rational creature) is a compound wholly mortal, contrary to that common distinction of soul and body: and that the present going of the soul into heaven or hell is a mere fiction: and that at the resurrection is the beginning of our immortality, and then actual condemnation, and salvation, and not before.', Watts, 'The Dissenters: From the Reformation to the French Revolution', p.119 (1985).

    1384 'The seventeenth-century Socinians John Biddle and Samuel Richardson both disbelieved in eternal torment and were convinced that the wicked would be annihilated.', Young, 'F.D. Maurice and Unitarianism,', p.249 (1992). ..." - Living On The Edge Challenges To Faith (Reference Work Series Volume 1), by Jonathan Burke, page 309-310 - Living On The Edge
     
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "... Already, by the mid-1520s, psychopannychism was being advocated in Austria, Switzerland, France, and the Netherlands as well as in Germany. In 1527, the Swiss Anabaptist leader Michael Sattler was burned at the stake, convicted on numerous counts of heresy, including denying the efficacy of the intercession of the virgin Mary and the departed saints (since, like all the faithful, they were asleep, awaiting the resurrection and the last judg-ment). In the Netherlands, Anthony Pocquet, a former priest and doctor in canon law, proclaimed that the redemptive work of Christ would culminate in the resurrection of the righteous. Believers who had died in anticipation of the resurrection were asleep in the grave. ..." - Bryan W. Ball, The immortality of the soul" Could Christianity survive without it?, page 11 - https://research.avondale.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1071&context=theo_papers

    "... A Baptist Confession of Faith, published in 1660 with two prominent mortalists as signatories, claimed to represent 20,000 followers in Kent, Sussex, and London alone, and a pamphlet published in 1701 ... An old document, only dis-covered in 2007, provides evidence that mortalism was still strong among General Baptists in Kent and Sussex in 1745.21 It seems beyond doubt that mortalist belief had prevailed among Baptists in southeast England for at least 200 years. " - Bryan W. Ball, The immortality of the soul" Could Christianity survive without it?, page 12 - https://research.avondale.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1071&context=theo_papers
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    “... Thirdly, Sabbath-day Baptists, or the observers of the ... Sabbath ...” - The Mystery of Anabaptism Unmask'd, being a full vindication of Infant Baptism in the Church of England, In answer to the fallacious Arguments, and pernicious errors or Mr. Morgan, Mr. Stennet, and other Principal Leaders of the Anabaptists, by Marius D'Assigny, page 225 - The Mystery of Anabaptism Unmask'd; Being a Full Vindication of Infant Baptism in the Church of England, in Answer to the Fallacious Arguments, and Pernicious Errors of Mr. Morgan, Mr. Stennet, and Other the Principal Leaders of the Anabaptists. To which are Added, Discourses ... Upon the Christian Sabbath ... The History of the Anabaptists from Their First Appearance in the World in Foreign Parts, and in England

    “... Fourthly, Soul-sleeping Baptists, who maintain that the Souls of Men enter not into a State of Immortality at their Egress of the Body, but sleep with their outward Tabernacles till the Day of the Resurrection, when they shall revive again. ...” - The Mystery of Anabaptism Unmask'd, being a full vindication of Infant Baptism in the Church of England, In answer to the fallacious Arguments, and pernicious errors or Mr. Morgan, Mr. Stennet, and other Principal Leaders of the Anabaptists, by Marius D'Assigny, page 226 - The Mystery of Anabaptism Unmask'd; Being a Full Vindication of Infant Baptism in the Church of England, in Answer to the Fallacious Arguments, and Pernicious Errors of Mr. Morgan, Mr. Stennet, and Other the Principal Leaders of the Anabaptists. To which are Added, Discourses ... Upon the Christian Sabbath ... The History of the Anabaptists from Their First Appearance in the World in Foreign Parts, and in England

    See also an excerpt (chapter 4) from "The Soul Sleepers - Christian Mortalism from Wycliffe to Priestley, by Bryan W. Ball (2008)" - https://www.jamesclarke.co/pub/soul sleepers ch4 extract.pdf

    See Also - Ministry Magazine | The immortality of the soul

    The immortality of the soul: Could Christianity survive without it? (Part 2 of 2)
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    What is amazing, is that modern Baptists, instead of following their more closely related brethren in matters soul-sleep, they take up the arguments of Origen, Eusebius, Augustine, John of Damascus (catholics):

    "... Chapter XXXVII.—The Dissension of the Arabians.2054

    About the same time others arose in Arabia, putting forward a doctrine foreign to the truth. They said that during the present time the human soul dies and perishes with the body, but that at the time of the resurrection they will be renewed together. And at that time also a synod of considerable size assembled, and Origen, being again invited thither, spoke publicly on the question with such effect that the opinions of those who had formerly fallen were changed.

    2054 The exact nature of the heresy which is here described by Eusebius is somewhat difficult to determine. It is disputed whether these heretics are to be reckoned with the θνητοπσυχίται (whom John of Damascus mentions in his de Hæres. c. 90, and to whom Augustine refers, under the name of Arabici, in his de Hæres, c. 83), that is, those who taught the death of the soul with the body, or with the ὑπνοψυχίται, who taught that the soul slept between the death and the resurrection of the body. Redepenning, in a very thorough discussion of the matter (II. 105 sq.), concludes that the heresy to which Eusebius refers grew up under Jewish influence, which was very strong in Arabia, and that it did not teach the death (as Eusebius asserts), but only the slumber of the soul. He reckons them therefore with the second, not the first, class mentioned. But it seems to me that Redepenning is almost hypercritical in maintaining that it is impossible that these heretics can have taught that the soul died and afterward was raised again; for it is no more impossible that they should have taught it than that Eusebius and others should have supposed that they did. In fact, there does not seem to be adequate ground for correcting Eusebius’ statement, which describes heretics who must distinctly be classed with the θνητοπσυχίται mentioned later by John of Damascus. We do not know the date at which the synod referred to in this chapter was held. We only know that it was subsequent to the one which dealt with Beryllus, and therefore it must have been toward the close of Philip’s reign. ..."
    - NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine by Schaff, Philip (1819-1893); Chapter XXXVII.—The Dissension of the Arabians.2054 - Philip Schaff: NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    “... Eusebius758 mentions ... Christians in Arabia who held that the soul remained unconscious from death to the resurrection. ...” - Systematic Theology - Volume III by Hodge, Charles (1797-1878) § 2. The Sleep of the Soul. - Charles Hodge: Systematic Theology - Volume III - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    See also
    - https://research.avondale.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1125&context=theo_chapters
     
    #34 Alofa Atu, Nov 24, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Aphrahat's theology:

    "... Immediately following the comparison of creation and baptism, Aphrahat asserted, “When people die, the ܪܘܚܐ ܢܦܫܢܝܬܐis buried with the body and sensation/perception(ܪܓܫܬܐ) is taken away from it.”20 ..." - SLEEP OF THE SOUL AND RESURRECTION OF THE BODY: APHRAHAT’S ANTHROPOLOGY IN CONTEXT J.EDWARD WALTERS ROCHESTER UNIVERSITY, page 441 - https://hcommons.org/deposits/objects/hc:26452/datastreams/CONTENT/content

    "... Beyond the recognition of his association of sense perception with the ܪܘܚܐ ܢܦܫܢܝܬܐ, it is also clear that Aphrahat used this term in reference to the soul based on his description of what happens to this entity at death and then at the resurrection, namely that the ܪܘܚܐ ܢܦܫܢܝܬܐwould be buried along with the body. Thus, Aphrahat teaches the concept of the “sleep of the soul.” Although Aphrahat did not explicitly state that the soul “sleeps,” he did argue that it is buried (ܡܬܛܡܪܐ)28with the body and that the capacity for sensation is removed from it. Thus, the soul remains with the body and exists in some kind of unconscious state.29 Aphrahat expressed his belief in the sleep of the soul even more clearly when he returned to this topic in Dem. 8 (“On the Resurrection of the Dead”) and contrasted the “sleep” of the righteous and the wicked in the time between death and the resurrection. He employed here an analogy of good and bad servants who are sleeping: the bad servants do not sleep well and do not wish to arise because they know that their master will punish them when they do wake up. The good servants, however, sleep soundly, knowing the rewards that await them. Aphrahat concluded the analogy thus: ܐܩܝ̈ܕܙܘܕܡܟܝܢ ܘܫܢܬܗܘܢ ܒܣܡܐ ܠܗܘܢ ܒܐܝܡܡܐ ܘܒܠܠܝܐ :ܘܟܠܗ ܢܘܗ̈ܝܢܝܥܒܒܝܫܚܐܥܫܐܕܚܟܝܐܘܢܝܫܓܪܐܠܪܝܓܢܕܐܝܠܠ .ܗܝܕܝܢ ܒܡܛܪܬܐ ܕܨܦܪܐ ܡܬܬܥܝܪܝܢܘܚܕܝܢ :ܐܠ̈ܘܥܘܫܢܬܗܘܢ ܪܡܝܐ ܥܠܝܗܘܢ ܘܕܡܝܢ ܠܓܒܪܐ ܕܪܡܐ ܒܐܫܬܐ ܪܒܬܐ ܘܥܡܝܩܬܐ :ܘܡܬܗܦܟ ܒܥܪܣܗ ܠܟܐ ܘܠܟܐ ܘܪܗܝܒ ܠܠܝܐ ܟܠܗ ܕܢܓܪ ܠܗ ܥܠܘܗܝ ܘܕܚܠܡܢ ܨܦܪܐ ܕܡܚܝܒ ܠܗ ܡܪܗ.The upright lie down and their sleep is pleasant, throughout day and night. For they do not perceive the whole night to ..."- SLEEP OF THE SOUL AND RESURRECTION OF THE BODY: APHRAHAT’S ANTHROPOLOGY IN CONTEXT J.EDWARD WALTERS ROCHESTER UNIVERSITY, page 442 - https://hcommons.org/deposits/objects/hc:26452/datastreams/CONTENT/content

    "... be long, but experience it as though it were a single moment. Then, when the morning comes, they wake up and rejoice. The sleep of the wicked, however, lies heavily upon them, like a man stricken with a strong,deep fever who tosses and turns on his bed, and who is disturbed throughout the long night. They fear the morning, when their master will condemn them (Dem. 8.19).30

    Following this passage, Aphrahat re-emphasized the point that, although the sleep of death may or may not be pleasant, human beings are not conscious during the period of death before the resurrection.Aphrahat argued that when the resurrection takes place, theܪܘܚܐ ܢܦܫܢܝܬܐwillbe raised along with the body and, at least for the righteous, will be transformed with the body into its “spiritual” state: “Theܪܘܚܐ ܢܦܫܢܝܬܐwill be swallowed up in the heavenly Spirit and the whole person will become spiritual since the body is in the spirit.”31Those who are not righteous, however, will not be changed; instead, they remain in their “natural” (ܢܦܫܢܝܬܐ) condition.32When the transformed righteous ones are taken away to heaven, the unrighteous, who are not transformed, remain on Earth and descend to Sheol. ..."- SLEEP OF THE SOUL AND RESURRECTION OF THE BODY: APHRAHAT’S ANTHROPOLOGY IN CONTEXT J.EDWARD WALTERS ROCHESTER UNIVERSITY, page 443 - https://hcommons.org/deposits/objects/hc:26452/datastreams/CONTENT/content
     
  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "... Browne says, "... the Arabians, that the soules of men perished with their bodies, but should both bee raised againe at the Last Day" (I.7) ... it was far from obsolete. In fact, during the Reformation both psychosomnolence--the belief that the soul sleeps until the resurrection--and thnetopsychism--the belief that the body and soul both die and then both rise again--were quite common; Martin Luther himself appears to have subscribed to a form of psychosomnolence. 33 The northern Italian humanists, including those centered in the University of Padua, were also notably skeptical about the immortality of the soul, and it was their vocal doubts that led to the fifth Lateran Council's condemnation of psychosomnolence as a heresy in 1515-1517. 34 ... Browne is familiar with the works of at least one of the Paduan skeptics, Pietro Pomponazzi. In De Immortalitate Animae (1516), Pomponazzi contended that, contra Aquinas, all the evidence pointed toward the mortality of the soul. ... declaring that ... the immortality of the soul could not be proved by philosophy ..." - Confessions of Faith in Early Modern England by Brooke Conti, page 120 - Confessions of Faith in Early Modern England
     
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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  18. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Found an interesting book on the subject (State of the Dead, Soul, Afterlife, Hell/Hellfire):

    Bible Vs. Tradition, in which the True Teaching of the Bible is Manifested. The Corruptions of Theologians Detected And The Traditions Of Men Exposed. By Aaron Ellis. Revised and Enlarged By Thomas Read. Sixth Edition. New York, Published At The Herald Of Life Office, 206 Broadway, (Room 7). 1870. ... By Aaron Ellis (with material from George Storrs) - Bible Vs. Tradition, in which the True Teaching of the Bible is Manifested, the Corruptions of Theologians Detected, and the Traditions of Men Exposed

    Has an interesting appendix.
     
  19. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Polycrates wrote:

    "... 1. But the bishops of Asia, led by Polycrates, decided to hold to the old custom handed down to them. He himself, in a letter which he addressed to Victor and the church of Rome, set forth in the following words the tradition which had come down to him:

    2. We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John, who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate.

    3. He fell asleep at Ephesus.

    4. And Polycarp in Smyrna, who was a bishop and martyr; and Thraseas, bishop and martyr from Eumenia, who fell asleep in Smyrna.

    5. Why need I mention the bishop and martyr Sagaris who fell asleep in Laodicea, or the blessed Papirius, or Melito, the Eunuch who lived altogether in the Holy Spirit, and who lies in Sardis, awaiting the episcopate from heaven, when he shall rise from the dead? ..." - Eusebius, Church History, Book V, Chapter 24, The Disagreement in Asia - CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book V (Eusebius)
     
  20. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Arnobius on Annihilation of the wicked:

    "... 14. Do you dare to laugh at us when we speak of hell, and fires which cannot be quenched, into which we have learned that souls are cast by their foes and enemies? What, does not your Plato also, in the book which he wrote on the immortality of the soul, name the rivers Acheron, Styx, Cocytus, and Pyriphlegethon, and assert that in them souls are rolled along, engulphed, and burned up? But though a man of no little wisdom, and of accurate judgment and discernment, he essays a problem which cannot be solved; so that, while he says that the soul is immortal, everlasting, and without bodily substance, he vet says that they are punished, and makes them suffer pain. But what man does not see that that which is immortal, which is simple, cannot be subject to any pain; that that, on the contrary, cannot be immortal which does suffer pain? And yet his opinion is not very far from the truth. For although the gentle and kindly disposed man thought it inhuman cruelty to condemn souls to death, he yet not unreasonably supposed that they are cast into rivers blazing with masses of flame, and loathsome from their foul abysses. For they are cast in, and being annihilated, pass away vainly in everlasting destruction. For theirs is an intermediate state, as has been learned from Christ's teaching; and they are such that they may on the one hand perish if they have not known God, and on the other be delivered from death if they have given heed to His threats and proffered favours. And to make manifest what is unknown, this is man's real death, this which leaves nothing behind. For that which is seen by the eyes is only a separation of soul from body, not the last end — annihilation: this, I say, is man's real death, when souls which know not God shall be consumed in long-protracted torment with raging fire, into which certain fiercely cruel beings shall cast them, who were unknown before Christ, and brought to light only by His wisdom. ..." - Arnobius, Against The Heathen, Book II, section 14. - CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book II (Arnobius)
     
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