Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

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A useful (small) archive of Conditionalist materials - My Conditionalist Archive

 

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Joseph Priestly:

"... SECTION XXI. A brief History of Opinion, concerning the State of the Dead.

AFTER reciting the foregoing series of opinions concerning the soul in general, it may not be amiss to consider by itself what has been thought concerning its condition between the death of the body and the resurrection. ...

... It was unquestionably the opinion of the apostles and early Christians, that whatever be the nature of the soul, its percipient and thinking powers cease at death; and thy had not hope of the restoration of those powers, but in the general resurrection of the dead. ..." - Disquisitions Relating To Matter And Spirit: To Which Is Added The History Of The Philosophical Doctrine Concerning The Origin Of The Soul, And The Nature Of Matter; With It Influence On Christianity, Especially With Respect To The Doctrine Of The Preexistence Of Christ, By Joseph Priestly, LL.D. F.R.S., Vol. I., The Second Edition, Improved And Enlarged, Birmingham, Printed By Pearson And Rollason, For J, Johnson, No. 72, St. Paul's Church-Yard, LONDON, MDCCLXXXII (1782)., page 271 - Disquisitions Relating to Matter and Spirit

"... That the genuine christian doctrine, of the sleep of the whole man till the resurrection, did [page 272-273] however, continue in the christian church, and especially among those who had little intercourse with philosophers, there is sufficient evidence. Dupin says, that under the reign of Philip, an assembly of bishops was held on account of some Arabians, who maintained that the souls of men died, and were raised again with their bodies ... Tatian was of the same opinion with those Arabians + ..." - Disquisitions Relating To Matter And Spirit: To Which Is Added The History Of The Philosophical Doctrine Concerning The Origin Of The Soul, And The Nature Of Matter; With It Influence On Christianity, Especially With Respect To The Doctrine Of The Preexistence Of Christ, By Joseph Priestly, LL.D. F.R.S., Vol. I., The Second Edition, Improved And Enlarged, Birmingham, Printed By Pearson And Rollason, For J, Johnson, No. 72, St. Paul's Church-Yard, LONDON, MDCCLXXXII (1782)., page 273 - Disquisitions Relating to Matter and Spirit

"... For Pope John XII. made himself very obnoxious by reviving, as it is said by Dupin, the opinion of the ancient Fathers, that the souls of good men do not enjoy the beatific vision till the day of judgment. He was very strenuous in asserting and preaching this doctrine, contrary to the judgment of the divines at Paris, who the king of France assembled for that purpose..." - Disquisitions Relating To Matter And Spirit: To Which Is Added The History Of The Philosophical Doctrine Concerning The Origin Of The Soul, And The Nature Of Matter; With It Influence On Christianity, Especially With Respect To The Doctrine Of The Preexistence Of Christ, By Joseph Priestly, LL.D. F.R.S., Vol. I., The Second Edition, Improved And Enlarged, Birmingham, Printed By Pearson And Rollason, For J, Johnson, No. 72, St. Paul's Church-Yard, LONDON, MDCCLXXXII (1782)., page 275 - Disquisitions Relating to Matter and Spirit

"... Though this doctrine of the immortality of the soul, as a substance distinct from the body, is manifestly favourable to popery, but few of the Protestants appear to have had strength of mind to call it in question. Luther, however, did it, though the opposition almost died with him. In defence of his propositions (in 1520) which had been condemned by a bull of Leo X. he ranks the opinion of the natural immortality of the soul ... among the monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals; and he afterwards made use of the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and he continued in that belief to the last moment of his life +. William Tyndale also, the famous translator of the Bible in English, in defending Luther's doctrines against Sir Thomas More's objections, considers the sleep of the soul as the doctrine of the Protestants of his time, and founded on the scriptures. ++. ..." - Disquisitions Relating To Matter And Spirit: To Which Is Added The History Of The Philosophical Doctrine Concerning The Origin Of The Soul, And The Nature Of Matter; With It Influence On Christianity, Especially With Respect To The Doctrine Of The Preexistence Of Christ, By Joseph Priestly, LL.D. F.R.S., Vol. I., The Second Edition, Improved And Enlarged, Birmingham, Printed By Pearson And Rollason, For J, Johnson, No. 72, St. Paul's Church-Yard, LONDON, MDCCLXXXII (1782)., page 278 - Disquisitions Relating to Matter and Spirit​

 

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Joseph Priestly:

...

"... For Pope John XII ...​

Correction (typo), "Pope John XII", should read "Pope John XXII".

 

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An interesting Magazine:

https://www.afterlife.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/FDTL.69.June-2016-website.pdf#page=4

How Conditional Immortality Succeeds (Part 1) by Peter Grice

Hell, No! (Part 1) by Michael Bieleski

Where did all the souls go? (Part 3) By Dr Glenn Andrew Peoples

Five questions to ask while reading The Rich man and Lazarus Story (Part 2) By Jefferson Vann

 

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Emmanuel Petavel-Olliff, etal.

"... It will at once be seen that in this theory the word “death” is employed in two contradictory senses. When it relates to the body, it designates the cessation of life; but when predicated of the soul, it bears the contradictory signification of the perpetuation of life. ..." - The Problem Of Immortality by Emmanuel Petavel-Olliff, With A Prefatory Letter By Charles Secretan, Professor Of Philosophy In The University Of Lausanne, Correspondent Of The Institute Of France;Translated From The French By Frederick Ash Freer; LONDON: Elliot Stock, 62, Paternoster Row, E.C., 1892; page 14 - The Problem of Immortality​

 

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Albert C. Johnson

"... The relation of Conditional Immortality to the biblical teaching of man’s mortality. The Bible is not silent on this side of the case. It speaks by word and act. A transaction at the gateway of human history startlingly indicates this truth. From the garden of God’s own planting, the man of God’s own making is driven out because of sin, and the reason of the sad expulsion is in the record. The man who was doomed to death must not eat of the “tree of life” and become immortal. Here God took good care that man, without redemption, should not receive power to “live forever.” It is a prophecy for all time. Sin and immortality are things that God hath not “joined together.”

Positive expressions of man’s mortality frequently occur. A Psalmist, singing of man’s “best estate,” fails to speak of his immortality, but rather declares that he is [page 2-3] “altogether vanity” (Psalm 39:5). Again, “Man is like to vanity” (Psalm 144:4). The Psalmist, Isaiah, Peter and James all unite in saying that man is like to the grass of the field, and all his glory like the flower thereof. James adds that man is like to “vapor that appeareth for a little time and then vanisheth away.” More than this, the word “man” or “men” occurs in the Old Testament over five hundred times as the rendering of a word whose meaning, and that of its corresponding Greek, is “a mortal.” (See Young’s Concordance, Dr. Adam Clarke on Job 4:17, and Liddell & Scott.) It is very strange that this fact has been wholly veiled in the common versions of the Scriptures, when, if it had appeared, many a passage would be more luminous. “Put them in fear, O Lord: let the nations know themselves to be but men [only mortals]” (Psalm 9:20). ..." - Conditional Immortality Its Relation to Christian Doctrine and to Final Retribution by Rev. Albert C. Johnson, pages 2-3 - https://truthaccordingtoscripture.c...bert C. Johnson - Conditional Immortality.pdf​

 

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Jeremy K. Moritz

"... From my study of the Bible, it seems to say much more about the death of the wicked than about their torture. Numerous verses use the terminology of life and immortality only when depicting Heaven while reserving words such as death, perishing, and destruction to describe Hell. Furthermore, there is not even one verse in the entire Bible that teaches the supposed "immortality of the soul" doctrine so prevalent in most Christian theology. Instead, it is made very clear that only God has eternal life, and He bestows immortality only to those whom He chooses—not to everyone. In reading the Bible for its plain meaning, there is no reason to feel obligated to believe that human beings will be kept alive in a never-ending, torturous Hell.Furthermore, the Bible gives a very clear picture about the nature and character of God the Father and of His Son Jesus Christ. God is love. All His ways are good. He is more loving than any human being could ever hope to be. Everything in the Bible corroborates this. If on the other hand the doctrine of unending, conscious pain for the wicked is added to the message of God, He can no longer be considered loving in any practical sense. This view stands in absolute conflict with the loving character of the Almighty God as revealed in the Bible, and the two cannot co-exist.There is also very little if any corroboration for the belief that human beings might deserve such a punishment. For years of Christian history, great theologians have worked out only meager rationalizations that don't stand up to scrutiny. Similarly, the question of the purpose for such punishment is completely avoided in these arguments. There is no valid reason for a loving God to subject people to torture without end when no more good could possibly come of it.Finally, it is my opinion that the belief in eternal punishment is a serious detriment to the entire message of salvation. It turns the "Good News" into bad news. Even when people turn to Jesus, it is not as much to embrace His loving gift as to avoid what they believe is the only other [page - page] alternative. This significantly alters the way many view the Almighty God and causes countless others to cast doubt on the reliability of the Gospel.The eternal torment model of Hell creates countless problems when set against the clear teaching of God's character. Neither does it stand up to scrutiny in systematic theology. Lastly, and most importantly, the overall credo of scripture plainly teaches against it while frequently reiterating the vocabulary of death for the unrighteous. Keeping all of these things in mind, it seems overwhelmingly evident to me that the only consistent way to interpret God's Word on this subject is to believe in the ultimate annihilation of unbelievers in the Lake of fire ..." - HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation? By Jeremy K. Moritz (last two pages) - http://www.dividingword.net/Death/HELL-Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation.pdf​

 

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Ralph Bowles:

"... The Conditionalist interpretation of Revelation 14:11 fits the immediate context much better than the eternal torment reading. There is no tension between the terms of proclamation of final judgement in Revelation 14:9-11 and the description of final judgement in Revelation 14:14-20. The traditionalist reading has a tension between the eternal torment supposedly predicted in Revelation 14:11 and the picture of final annihilating destruction that follows in Revelation 14:14-20. ..." - Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment? by Ralph Bowles, page 29, also see The Evangelical Quarterly, page 29 - The Evangelical Quarterly​

 

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A Weslyan report:

"... sign that the doctrine of “conditionalism” was having an influence among the Wesleyans—and evidence of influences shared by Adventism and my own church. The report in THE BIBLE EXAMINER (?) of George Storrs indicated that Luther Lee was the prosecutor in a church trial of an “Elder John Tate.” Tate was accused of heresy in having adopted “conditonalism” and “annihilationism.” In his defense, Tate introduced a letter from Orange Scott, indicating that Scott had abandoned the classical doctrine of hell, but would not make this fact public until he decided whether “conditonalism” or “universal restorationism” was the more biblical position. Lee disputed the interpretation of the letter, and Tate was driven out of the church. Scott died shortly thereafter (1847), apparently before deciding, and this incident was lost to history except for this report. ..." - https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=qod​

 

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Methodist Connexion, not against their doctrine to teach Soul Sleep and can be held faithfully in good standing with the body:

"... This, we consider, as a very inadequate declaration of the Methodist tenets. It is only a part of them, and leaves room for much discordancy of sentiment and language in our pulpits. ... 7. We are at liberty to say, that the soul sleeps from death till the resurrection, or not, as we feel inclined. ..." - To The Preachers And Delegates Assembled In Conference, Leeds, MAY 1815, And To The Trustees Of Chapels, And The Members Of The New Methodist Connexion In General by the Methodist New Connexion - page 6 - To the preachers and delegates assembled in conference and to ... the members of the New Methodist connexion [a letter, signed Leeds friends, criticising the draft constitution of the Methodist new connexion].​

 

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Richard Overton:

"Man Wholly Mortal, or, A Treatise Wherein 'Tis proved, both Theologically and Philosophically, That as whole Man sinned, so whole Man died; contrary to that common distinction of Soul and Body: And that the present going of the Soul to Heaven or Hell is a meer Fiction: And that at the resurrection is the beginning of our Immortality; and then actual Condemnation and Salvation, and not before.

With Doubts and Objections answered and resolved, both by Scripture and Reason, discovering the multitude of Blasphemies and Absurdities that arise from the fancy of the Soul.

Also, divers other Mysteries; as of Heaven, Hell, the extent of the Resurrection, the New-Creation, &c. opened, and presented to the Trial of better Judgment. By R. O. [Richard Overton] The Second Edition, by the Author corrected & enlarged.

That which befalleth the Sons of Men, befalleth Beasts; even one thing befalleth them all: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath: so that Man hath no pre-eminence above a Beast: for all is vanity. Eccl. 3.19. Printed at London, Anno 1675. ..." - Richard Overton (Title of the Book itself) - Mans Mortallitie. Man Wholly Mortal ... By R. O. i.e. Richard Overton. The second edition, by the author corrected and enlarged​

 

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Methodist Minister John H. Pearce:

"... An Attempt to Answer the Question, has man a conscious state of existence after death, and previous to the resurrection? By John H. Pearce. Fayetteville. 1844. pp.8

"... An ... attempt to maintain the doctrine of Psychopannuchia, or sleep of the soul after death, by a member, and it would seem a minister, of the Methodist Church in North Carolina. ..." - The Biblical Repertory and Princeton Review, Volume 16, page 603, edited by Charles Hodge, Lyman Hotchkins Atwater, James A Peabody - The Biblical Repertory and Princeton Review

"... 2632. Pearce, John H. An Attempt to Answer the Question, has man a conscious state [left to right column] of existence after death, and previous to the resurrection? Fayetteville [N.C.], 1844, pp.8 Maintains the sleep of the soul. ..." - The Literature of the Doctrine of a Future Life, Or, A Catalogue of Works Relating to the Nature, Origin, and Destiny of the Soul. The Titles Classified, and Arranged Chronologically, with Notes, and Indexes of Authors and Subjects. By Ezra Abott, Librarian of Harvard University. Compiled (Originally) as an Appendix to the "History of the Doctrine of a Future Life," by William R. Alger. Published in 1864. New York: W. J. Widdleton, Publisher. 1871. Stereo typed in 1862, except a small addition (p. 876) 1863.- page 792 - The Literature of the Doctrine of a Future Life, Or, A Catalogue of Works Relating to the Nature, Origin, and Destiny of the Soul​

 

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Walter Martin on Martin Luther, William Tyndale, and John Wycliffe:

"... Many noted Christians of the past believed in conditional immortality, among them Martin Luther, William Tyndale, and John Wycliffe, all of whom were competent Greek scholars. ..." - The Kingdom of the Cults: The Definitive Work on the Subject by Walter Martin - The Kingdom of the Cults​

 

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J. H. McCulloh:

"... The first argument I shall offer to induce the belief that the soul has not a separate nor conscious existence after death, is founded on our Saviour's words as recorded in John v. 28, 29, where he remarks, "Marvel not at this, [page 479-480 internal, PDF 488-489] for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, (i.e. from their graves,) they that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation," (more properly condemnation in its present sense.)

The inference to be put on these words of our Saviour is explicitly that the responsible personality of every individual man, whether he was good or evil in his life, remains in the grave until summoned by our Lord to come forth to judgment. And nothing can be more forced that the supposition, that our Saviour's words apply only to the inert material body which of itself is incapable of doing good or evil. But as we shall presently shew there is a great misapprehension as to the fact of the resurrection of t he body itself, the absolute force of our Saviour's words will be more fully appreciated when we shall have made an exposition of what Paul has said expressly upon the subject.

The state of the dead is universally spoken of by Paul as being a sleep in the grave, from which they shall ultimately be aroused or awakened by a shout or by a blast upon a trumpet at the last day. This representation is distinctly made, 1 Thess. iv. 13--17. "But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep," (i.e. those Christians who had deceased,) "that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope." (i.e. of a resurrection.) ...

... The argument of Paul as exhibited in the second of the verses above quoted, is absolutely conclusive that the soul is unconscious until the resurrection. ..." - Analytical Investigations concerning the Credibility of the Scriptures, and of the Religious System inculcated in them' Together with a Historical Exhibition of Human Conduct During the Several Dispensations under which Mankind have been placed by their Creator. by J. H. McCulloh, M.D. Author of Researches Philosophical and Antiquarian on America; The Evidences of Christianity, ETC. In Two Volumes. Vol. II BALTIMORE: JAS. S. WATERS, 244 BALTIMORE ST. MDCCCLII. (1852) - Analytical Investigations Concerning the Credibility of the Scriptures and of the Religious ... : J. H. McCulloh : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

"... 2317. McCulloh, J. H. Analytical Investigations concerning the Credibility of the Scriptures, and of the Religious System inculcated in them ... . 2 vol. Baltimore, 1852, 8 (o). Vol. II. pp. 465-489, treats of "the human soul, and the various questions implicated in its existence, immortality, &c." The author maintains the sleep of the soul, and the destruction of the wicked. ..." - The Literature of the Doctrine of a Future Life, Or, A Catalogue of Works Relating to the Nature, Origin, and Destiny of the Soul. The Titles Classified, and Arranged Chronologically, with Notes, and Indexes of Authors and Subjects. By Ezra Abott, Librarian of Harvard University. Compiled (Originally) as an Appendix to the "History of the Doctrine of a Future Life," by William R. Alger. Published in 1864. New York: W. J. Widdleton, Publisher. 1871. Stereo typed in 1862, except a small addition (p. 876) 1863.- page 780 - The Literature of the Doctrine of a Future Life, Or, A Catalogue of Works Relating to the Nature, Origin, and Destiny of the Soul​

 

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Reginald Courtenay, D.D., Lord Bishop Of Kingston (Jamaica)

"... And again, in many places, the Scriptures speak of the grave as a region of darkness and unconsciousness, and of the dead as buried in sleep. And these passages, which are very numerous, are among those which have led to the [page 240-241] conclusion entertained by many persons, and advocated in this Book, that the dead are utterly unconscious, being spell-bound by the powers of Sin and Death, till the coming of the Great Day. ..." - The Future States, Their Evidences and Nature Considered On Principles Physical, Moral, And Scriptural by the Right Rev. Reginald Courtenay, D.D., Lord Bishop Of Kingston (Jamaica); London: T. Hatchard, 187 Piccadilly. 1857, pages 240-241 - The future states.. : Courtenay, Reginald. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

 

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J. Panton Ham (the Elder), Minister of Cooper's Hall Congregational Church, Bristol:

"... There is reason to believe that many who enter upon this controversy, have not a mutual understanding with respect to the point in debate; and that there would be more unanimity of opinion if care were taken to describe accurately the precise nature of the controversy. On this subject we are in special danger of mixing up human traditions with the verities of revelation; and it is, therefore, of the first importance that we distinguish warily the unequivocal utterances of inspired truth from the speculative deductions of purely human science. Here the caveat of Paul may be urged with special propriety,--"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."* Here Philosophy has, for many ages, usurped the chair of the Great Teacher; and her voice has prevailed above the voice of Him that speaketh from heaven. Here the authority of Plato transcends the authority of Christ,--and the dogmas of the Academy, the doctrines of the Bible. We must reverse the Protestant boast in describing the real authority with the Church on this portion of its faith and doctrine, and say, "not Scripture, but tradition." + I am aware that these are grave charges, ... [page 5-6] and I would not be understood to insinuate that the defenders of the doctrines which I have ventured to impugn, knowingly and designedly displace the highest and only authority. I believe that they revere the supremacy of Christ in his Church quite as much as myself, and would be as ready as I am to abandon whatever shall be proved to be contrary to his doctrine. But while I am anxious not to question the sincerity of those who differ from me, I am equally anxious not to be found abetting, but a culpable withholdment of personal conviction, a system of instruction which my conscience dictates to be radically erroneous. The separate existence of the human soul,--its immateriality, immortality, and conscious personality, are, I believe, the laboured cogitations of human reason, unblest with, and, alas! despite of the teachings of revelation. They are, in my humble opinion, neither more nor less than the perpetuations of Platonic theories in the Christian Church, which found their way hither in the polemic age of ancient Christianity, and which have been borne down the turbid stream of controversial and scholastic theology to out own day.* In proof of this I have only to appeal to the candour of every student of [page 6-7] Church history, especially of that important part of Church history which embraces the history and development of the doctrines. That the doctrines concerning the human soul as popularly held, are not the doctrines of the Scriptures will be best seen by a careful examination of those passages upon which depends this branch of religious teaching, and to which we propose to advert. Allow me, however, to impress my preliminary caution on the great importance of distinguishing between the teaching of human philosophy, and that of Divine revelation. The question, let it be particularly noted, is not, "What is the human soul,--is it capable of separate existence,--and what is its separate state after death?"* This is a purely philosophical, not a religious inquiry, nor has it anything whatever to do with religion, unless the decisions of philosophy shall be accepted as the affirmations of revealed religion, and be acknowledged as part and parcel of it. To this question Philosophy has given a categorical reply;--the Bible nowhere supposes, nor sug- [page 7-8] gests such a question as this, and hence it has given no answer. Let this be especially observed. Every dogmatic assertion touching the human soul as a separate existence,--every predication of its nature, capabilities, and mode of being, is necessarily of no higher value than a human opinion. I say necessarily, because the Bible neither directly nor indirectly, neither by affirmation nor implication, contains the remotest allusion to any of these ideas. I repeat then, the question is not, "What is the separate state of the soul after deal?" but, "What is the state of man after death?" The former question, if it be a proper question at all, properly belongs to the circle of human science, and must be regarded as partaking of the dubious and unsatisfactory character which pertains to psychological investigation. The soul or spirit of man in the popular sense of a disembodied personality, is an idea nowhere recognised, and is evidently unknown to inspired theology.* The Bible nowhere regards the soul of man any more than his body as attaching to itself the human personality. When it speaks of man's destiny, and predicates anything concerning it, it has respect to the composite being,--the unique creature, man. Neither the body nor the soul is separately contemplated; but the one intellectual, sensational and corporeal being called man. I have endeavored in another place + to show that whatever may be the qualities and characteristics of [page 8-9] the constituents of man's composite nature, his personality is not involved in either of these constituents separately considered, but in their union; and that in the disunion of the constituents of his being is involved the dissolution of the personality, or the man. Man is an organized being, and like all other organic natures, must owe his existence, we should presume, to his organization. We are not acquainted with any species of organized being, whose individuality survives disorganization; why, therefore, should we suppose, in the absence of any authoritative information, that the case is otherwise with man,--that man retains his individuality after his disorganization? Have we not reason to repudiate an opinion which is contrary to analogy, and without the least shadow of support from Scripture? The Patriarch puts the question in the true theological form, and furnishes a categorical reply at direct variance with the popular creed. "Man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?" Not where is his soul, or spirit, but where is he,--man? To which it is replied, "As the waters fail from the dead, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: so MAN lieth down and riseth not; till the heavens be no more they shal not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Can imagery and literal assertion more emphatically declare the complete decease of the being man? and give a more unequivocal reply to the interesting question,--"Where is he,--man, between death and resurrection? The cessation of man's conscious being is yet further implied in the succeeding question, "If a man die, shall he live [page 9-10] again?" To which the Patriarch replies, "All the days of my appointed time will I wait till my change come. Thou shalt call and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands."* ..." - The Generations Gathered and Gathering; or the Scripture Doctrine Concerning Man in Death. by J. Panton Ham (the Elder), Minister of Cooper's Hall Congregational Church, Bristol. London: Longman, Brown, Green, & Co. 1850 - pages 5-10 - The Generations Gathered and Gathering, Or the Scripture Doctrine Concerning Man in Death​

 

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Nathaniel Field, M.D., Pastor of the Church of God

"... When God created man, he breathed into his nostrils the breath of spirit of life, and then, not before, man became a living soul, or person. Here was an organized man, to which God applied the motive power, and the result was, the machinery of this organic matter was put into operation, and produced the phenomena of intellectuality and the moral passions. But for sin, it was [page 89-90] decreed that he should return to dust. When, therefore, he is disorganized, the breath of life returns to God who gave it, and the constituents of the man are in precisely the condition they were in before he was created. Until it please the Almighty Creator to re-construct the dust, and again infuse into it the principle of life, he remains in his primeval condition, as it respects sensibility, consciousness, and intelligence. Having once lived, and formed his character for good or evil, God, for wise and just purposes, will re-organize and restore him to life, that he may be judged and rewarded according to his deeds. ..." - A Debate on the State of the Dead, Between Reverend Thomas P. Connelly, A.B., An Evangelist of The Christian Church [opposed to state of the dead being unconsciousness] and Nathaniel Field, M.D., Pastor of the Church of God Meeting at the Christian Tabernacle in the City of Jeffersonville, Indiana [for the state of the dead being unconscious]. Held at Old Union Meeting House, In the Vicinity of Indianapolis, In the Summer of 1852. Reported by J, G, Gordon, Esquire, Attorney At Law, And Revised By The Parties. Louisville: Printed by Morton and Griswold. 1854. - http://creationismonline.com/Studies/1314.PDF​

 

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M. Grant, of Boston, Mass; in a debate, on the state of the dead, pro-mortal, pro-sleep, Thief on the Cross-examination (get it??, Cross-examination ... "Hello? (tap, tap), Is this thing on?" )

"... We now come to the Thief on the cross. It is very fortunate that our opponent has our tracts to read. It gives him this advantage; he knows our arguments before we advance them. We hope that he will make the best use of them he can, but not ridicule what he cannot meet. He has made some strange statements in relation to this Thief. There is not one word about spirit in this account, not a word. We do not see that this Scripture has any bearing on the question. It is asked, "What idea had the disciples of the death of Christ?" "Did they suppose that he was going to be slain?" Says Paul, "We believe that Jesus died and rose [page 19-20] again." We must believe that He did actually die. Our opponent argues that the Thief did not understand that the Lord was to die; but that he supposed that Christ was about to descend from the cross and set up his Kingdom in Jerusalem. I would like the proof. This is another assertion, and we hope the audience will distinguish between assertions and proof. Let us see if we can reconcile this conclusion with facts. The passage does not say, "When Thou comest down from the cross, remember me," but "when thou comest into Thy Kingdom." If the disciples thought Christ was to set up his kingdom during his first advent; the Savior corrected them before his crucifixion, in the following parable, and many other places. "A certain nobleman went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return." The Savior spoke this parable to show that he was to be gone a long time, and then return and set up his kingdom. We are told in Luke 21:31. "When ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." We claim, sir, he taught the Apostles distinctly that his kingdom was in the distant future; and that, "when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." This is in harmony with all the teachings of our Savior, and we challenge the first passage of Scripture to show the contrary.

We will now examine the passage--"Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Christ says; "Verily I say unto thee, to-day shalt thou be with me in paradise." The question is asked, "Where is paradise?" The answer was given "the invisible world," "hades," "the place of departed spirits." The word hades in the New Testament corresponds with the word sheol in the Old Testament. Let the Bible describe hades; not Josephus, not the heathen philosophers. We profess to be Bible men. In Eccl. 9:10, we read, "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in (sheol) the grave, whither thou goest." If the Thief went to paradise in hades, he went where there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, nor device; and though my opponent should bring a thousand heathen philosophers to the contrary, we shall stand by the Bible definition. We know the heathen taught the idea, that there was an infernal region, and that Pluto was the God of it. But where is paradise? Let the Bible answer. We know the old paradise was where Adam lived; where the tree of life grew, and he was driven from that paradise, lest he should eat of the fruit "and live for ever." Turn to Revelations 2:7. Says the Savior, "to him that overcometh, will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God." is the tree of life down in Hades?--where "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom!" In Adam's days it was upon the earth; but we are told that [page 20-21] hades is a subterranean place, in the interior of the earth. We have now found the tree of life is in paradise. Where is that? We turn to Rev. 21st and 22nd Chap., and we find the new earth or the kingdom described. Says the Savior, "blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." Did the Savior or the Thief go there when they died? My friend, Mr. Clayton, does not contend that they went to Heaven, but others do. The Savior says to Mary after His resurrection, "Touch me not, for I am not ascended to my Father." He was on earth forty days after that; so that if the Thief went to Heaven that day, he did not find the Savior there. He did not go till forty-three days after the crucifixion.

We are told that we tinker the Bible. That we punctuate it wrong. How is this? Others have tinkered it before us, for the Bible as originally written, is entirely without punctuation. The comma was not introduced till the 16th century. Griesbach, one of the best translators, says, "the comma in this passage is place by some, on one side of 'to-day,' by others on the other." Taking this passage by itself, without endeavoring to harmonize it with the rest of the Bible, and it seems to prove that they went to paradise that day. But we have found that paradise is to be in the new earth. If we put the comma on the other side of "to-day," it will harmonize with the whole Bible. Let us show the importance of a comma by citing other passages. See Heb. 10:12. "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God." Other Bibles punctuate this as follows: "But this man after he had offered one sacrifice for sins, forever sat down on the right hand of God." This would prove he could never come back again. Take another example. Matt. 19:28. "And Jesus said unto them, verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." If we put the comma after regeneration, instead of me, as we find it in many Bibles, the passage then teaches that Christ was regenerated or converted, which is a monstrous idea. We see all do not tinker alike on punctuation. I do not like that word tinker, it is rather slurring. We have not come here to use sarcasm.

We come back to the Thief. The argument turns upon the doubtful position of the comma. If we put it on one side of to-day, it contradicts the Bible; if on the other, it harmonizes with it perfectly. We find in many examples in the Bible where to-day is used in the same sense that it would be in the case of the Thief, if the comma be placed after to-day. Let us look at a few. Deut. 30:16. "In that I command thee this-day to love the Lord thy God." Deut. 30:18-19. "I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish." "I call Heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing." Deut. 8:19. "And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord they God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish." The phrase "this day," is as superfluous in these examples as in the passage under [page 21-22] examination. Says Mr. Webster, "I speak to day for the preservation of the Union." Every body knew it was to-day, but it is a common way of speaking. Mr. Choate said on another occasion, "to-day, fellow citizens, we also speak for the Union." When we were at Sandy Hill a few days since, a minister rose and said, "I expect to-night, to get into the kingdom." Put the comma after "expect," and it means he is going to the kingdom before morning. ..." - Discussion of the Doctrine of the State of the Dead and Punishment of the Wicked; Between Elder W. W. Clayton, of Auburn, N.Y., and Elder M. Grant, of Boston, Mass. On the Evenings of December 5,6,7,8, and 9, A.D. 1859, at Union Hall in Seneca Falls. Phonographically Reported by Fred. L. Manning, Waterloo, N.Y., and Revised by the Parties. Seneca Falls, N.Y.: Published by Thomas G. Newman. 1860 - Discussion of the doctrine of the state of the dead and punishment of the wicked / between Elders W.W. Clayton and M. Grant, of Boston, Mass. ... ; phonographically ...​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Edmund Law:

"... I proceed, in the next place, to consider what account the Scriptures give of that state to which death reduces us. And this we find represented by sleep; by a negation of all life, thought, or action; by rest or home; silence, oblivion, darkness, destruction or corruption. ..." - Considerations on the Theory of Religion: In Three Parts. ... with an Appendix, Concerning the use of the word SOUL in Holy Scripture; and the State of the Dead there described. ... by Edmund Law, D.D., Master of St. Peter's College in Cambridge, and Archdeacon of Staffordshire. The Fifth Edition, corrected and compleated. Cambridge, Printed by J. Bentham, Printer to the University; For W. Thurlbourn & J. Woodyer, and T. & J. Merrill, in Cambridge; L. Davis & C. Reymers, in Holborn, J. Beecroft, in Pater-noster Row, and B. Dod & Co. in Ave Mary Lane, London. M.DCC.LXV (1765), page 386 - Considerations on the Theory of Religion

From this page 386
he lays the cases of Good men in "I. SLEEP", page 386-387,
the cases of bad men, page 387,
the cases of all men, page 388.

Then on page 388 begins with "... II. Death is represented by a negation of all LIFE, THOUGHT, OR ACTION; even to good men. ..."

On page 389, "... III. Death is represented as a REST, a HOME. ...", "... IV. As a state of SILENCE ..."

On page 390, "... V. Of OBLIVION. ...", "... VI. Of DARKNESS. ...", "... VII. Of CORRUPTION and DESTRUCTION. ..."

The author then continues listing texts on the Resurrection and Judgment to come unto page 405.

On page 405 the author then begins with "... OBJECTIONS ...", and refutes them by Scripture in brief all the way to page 424, which then afterwards begins the POSTSCRIPT.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Charles L. Ives:

"... IX. From the preceding investigations we obtain the following results:

We learn that in the Bible, our only standard of truth in these matters, the word SOUL is used to denote a material organized being; and though generally used of such when endowed with vitality, it is also used of the same when life has departed. The Bible uses the word soul, then, in its primary meaning, to denote THE MATERIAL ORGANIZATION: in other words, it denotes matter organized so as to be susceptible of life. The Bible applies the term equally to men and to animals, and the existence of such beings depends upon the integrity of this organization. Hence the term is also used in the abstract to denote the vitality or life-principle itself of such living beings. To repeat: the word soul, in the Bible, means primarily the animal organization; as its secondary meaning, we find it denotes not infrequently the life of all earthly creatures. The fact is explicitly stated that such beings are formed of material elements, and no account whatever is found in the Biblical writings of anything beyond this entering into their composition. The language of the inspired apostle in 1 Cor. XV: 45,47, is most decisive on this point. He states the first man, Adam, was made a living soul, Gr. psuche: then he describes this first man as being (in the Greek) psuch-ikon, we may translate psuch-ical, or to coin a corresponding English word, soul-ical. And this so designated "soul-ical" being, he declares is "ek ges," of earth, earthy! If this be materialism, so let it be. It is the materialism of the Bible, and rests upon an authority which man can [page 33-34] not assail. "Let the potsherds strive with the potsherds of the earth; wo to him that striveth with his Maker! Shall the clay say to Him that fashioned it, what makest thou?" Isaiah XLV:19.

Man, a living soul of such a nature, does not then possess immortality by his creation. It can be his, only as a special gift from his Maker. As a consequence of Adam's sin (1 Cor. XV:22*), being begotten in his image, (Gen. V:3,) he dies, and ceasing to exist, "in that very day his thoughts perish." (Ps. CXLVI:4.) But the Creator keeps for him his life in His remembrance, and at His "appointed time" restores that life at the resurrection, raising him up again with his old emotions, habits of thought, and history, in fact the same individual as before. Then the question, whether he shall have eternal life or not, is forever decided according to the deeds already done in the body. Those whose names are found written in the book of life, who have in this world accepted the gift of God, eternal life, then "put on immortality," and live forever with their Redeemer. Those who have rejected the same free gift, who have chosen in this world of probation to live as brutes, shall perish as such; they will suffer the capital punishment of God's tribunal, the second or eternal death, attended with such degrees of pain, as, apart from the recognition of their own folly, a wise and holy God may see fit to inflict.

Is this the belief laid down for us in the Bible? Each one must judge for himself. The writer, with a conviction deepening with continued investigation, claims that it is. Is it the belief of Christendom generally? No, indeed. [page 34-35]

Why not? Because that Satan, the prince of this present world, has for centuries blinded the eyes of the church to the truth. How sad to recognize from the letters of our departed Saviour to the Seven Churches, (Rev. II: III that ere the last of the Apostles was called to his rest, Satan had already begun to corrupt the truth he could not destroy. Nor did his malign influence then cease. Let anyone read of the Christian dissensions on points of doctrine in the subsequent centuries; of the sad conformity to the world, the cringing to its philosophers and potentates; of the fierce discussion of the great Christian councils, and of decrees obtained by finesse and force rather than by moral means; of the ever advancing corruption of the Romish Church, and the almost eclipse of truth during the dark ages; all show the fearful power of the Evil one. To be sure, Luther brought back to the Church the cardinal truth, "the just shall live by faith," rather than by work, but was that great reformation an entire casting out of error from that portion of the Church it reached? Even the great reformer himself, so strong the force of early belief, could never emancipate himself from the error of transubstantiation [He actually did, see Luther's Table Talk]. Was there not still left in the Church that underlying error, derived from the philosophy of this world, of a natural immortality for all? and to this dogma is not our interpretation of the Bible itself made to bend? This is the question before us, a question to be decided not by tradition, not by submitting to any human authority, however unexceptionable, but by a prayerful, independent study of the volume of God's revealed will. ..." - The Bible Doctrine of the Soul. An Answer To The Question: Is The Popular Conception Of The Soul That Of Holy Scripture? By Chas. L. Ives [Charles L. Ives], M.D. Professor of the Theory and Practice of Medicine, in Yale College. New Haven, Conn.: (Published for the Author.) Judd & White. F.L. Goddard, Printer, 131 Union Street. 1873., pages 33-35 - The Bible doctrine of the soul : an answer to the question, is the popular conception of the soul that of Holy Scripture? / by Chas. L. Ives.​