Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

[Ronnie Vaughan]

I think I hit a nerve....I may have just stuck gold. I will be praying that 2Tim. 3:16-17 will open your eyes to the truth that Ellen White's supposed prophetic gift was false, that the Bible alone is sufficient, and that her plagiarized books are full of false doctrines, especially the investigative judgement which contradicts salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. There is no work that needs to be examined to see if we are worthy; we are not. I don't even need to site the verses that teach these things because I'm sure you already know them. And, I invite those brothers and sisters that read this to join me to pray the same in hopes that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will open your eyes to these truth's since you don't believe we worship the same God my friend....blessings to you.

 

[Alofa Atu]

the Bible is all we need. No secondary revelation is needed

So, Ten Commandments and no Moses?
So, Moses and no Joshua?
So, Joshua and no Samuel?
So, Samuel, and no Isaiah?
So, Isaiah and no Jeremiah?
So, Jeremiah, and no Ezekiel?
So, Ezekiel and no Daniel?
So, Daniel, and no 'minor' prophets?
So, 'minor prophets' and no John the Baptist?
So, John the Baptist and no Jesus (that "Prophet")?
So, Jesus and no Epistles of Paul, Peter, Jude, James?
So, the Epistles but no Agabus, Philipps four Daughters, etc?
So, Agabus, Philips four Daughters, etc and no Revelation of Jesus Christ by John?
So, OT but no NT? which btw was the context of 2 Timothy in regards the "scripture".

So, to the Law, but not to the Testimony? Isaiah 8:20.

So "Apostles", but not "Prophets"?
So "Evangelists", but not "Prophets"?
So, "Pastors", but not "Prophets"?
So "Teachers", but not "Prophets"?
So "miracles", but not "Prophets"?
So "healings", but not "Prophets"?
So "helps", but not "Prophets"?
So "governments", but not "Prophets"?
So "diversities of tongues (languages)", but not "Prophets"?

God said:

Mat_23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Luk_11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

Reject the messenger sent, you reject the Bible itself.

 

[Alofa Atu]

plagiarized books

Proven false years ago, and over and over again (you speak as you do contrary to documented evidence) - https://archive.org/download/sda-pl...arism Charges Proved False - Ramik Report.pdf

 

[Alofa Atu]

the investigative judgement

Proven from scripture here -

https://archive.org/download/hide-seek/Hide & Seek.pptx

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

Think chronology when interpreting biblical statements; it may help. BTW, "It is finished"!

 

[Alofa Atu]

false doctrines

Merely accusation. You produced no evidence what so ever. Pick any doctrine you like. I am ready with Bible open, what about you?

 

[Alofa Atu]

Think chronology when interpreting biblical statements; it may help. BTW, "It is finished"!

Do you even know what was "finished"? I do. The courtyard service. The character that was worked out in the likeness of sinful flesh by the Holy Ghost in Christ Jesus. It was the laying of the "foundation", the "corner stone" (Christ Jesus Himself), not the whole temple (which would take 3 days; see 2 Peter 3:8; Psalms 84:10, 90:5), which was to be built afterward, and the service of the Holy and Most Holy in Heaven, a per Hebrews and Revelation and Daniel and Leviticus, &c. Pentecost wasn't finished at Calvary. It still came right on time, 50 days later after the resurrection. The feast of Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles neither were finished there.

The 'nerve' you struck, was your own. Right now all you are doing is lashing out with nothing but your own opinions.

 

[Alofa Atu]

to pray the same in hopes that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will open your eyes

God does not listen to vain prayers, especially those who willingly disregard His Law:

Pro_28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

Lashing out? Do tell; what part of I'm done didn't you understand. I'm not the one in need of an argument. I've even told you why....been there done that. With family, with my previous pastor, with a prolificate Adventist theologian/author. I don't have any desire; I was just wondering why you were spamming the thread with a gazillion posts. Do you have OCD or something? Again blessings, and good bye.

 

[Walter]

Lashing out? Do tell; what part of I'm done didn't you understand. I'm not the one in need of an argument. I've even told you why....been there done that. With family, with my previous pastor, with a prolificate Adventist theologian/author. I don't have any desire; I was just wondering why you were spamming the thread with a gazillion posts. Do you have OCD or something? Again blessings, and good bye.

If you look at the many threads started by SDA's, you will see this is 'spamming' the threads is what they do consistently. They are not here to learn or seriously discuss doctrine. They are here to proselytize.

 

[Alofa Atu]

They are not here to learn or seriously discuss doctrine.

Um, the point of this thread was to "seriously discuss doctrine" and to "learn" (I actually learned a lot through my recent research). I even, at great pains, and time and effort, "seriously" produced many historical references on the subject of the OP topic. Who but myself, and one other actually discussed them? No one. All we got was "whining" and your post is no different.

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

If you look at the many threads started by SDA's, you will see this is 'spamming' the threads is what they do consistently. They are not here to learn or seriously discuss doctrine. They are here to proselytize.

Although I am new to this discussion board I would have assumed as much. They do it everywhere faith is a topic of discussion. They believe the calling to come out of Babylon is a call to leave the heretical sects (which is everyone except them) and join the true church (them). By default, they just cannot help themselves. Though they are rather pushy, they are genuinely sincere for the most part. There was a time that I would take the time time to dialog with them; I just grew tired of it over the years. I grew up in a family who were for the most part Adventists in Tacoma Park MD very close to their general conference (at that time). I have spent many hours over the years in theological dialog with them. You are 100% correct; they are not listening any more than a Jehovah's Witness at your door.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Discuss - Where is King David - the Person?

Peter says:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.​

Paul says:

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.​

Chronicler says:

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1Ki 1:21 Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

1Ki 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

1Ch 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

1Ch 29:28 And he died in a good old age, full of days, riches, and honour: and Solomon his son reigned in his stead.​

Jesus says:

Luk_14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.​

Job says:

Job 5:26 Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

I have found that those who mark things as "funny" when I ask them about David, have the same spirit as those who 'mocked' Jesus and 'laughed Him to scorn', when He said:

Mat_9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Mar 5:40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.​

Therefore a warning, in charity:

Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.​

The day of their reaping, 30, 60 or 100 fold what they have given - comes with all speed. Their reward is sure.

If they cannot answer the question "Discuss - Where is King David - the Person?", according to scripture, at least they ought to keep silent and thought wise.

 

[Alofa Atu]

When will those who died in Christ Jesus be made "perfect", immediately upon death, or after their resurrection from the grave?

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.​

When did Jesus go to receive for Himself His Kingdom, in death, or after His resurrection and ascension from the Mount of Olivet?

Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Isa_13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

For those who teach that when a person dies, they go immediately to their "reward" (Heaven/Hell/'Purgatory'/'Limbo'/'Abraham's Bosom', etc), what do they do with the persons who died and were resurrected back to their earthly existence, for instance:

[01] Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's Son – 1 Kings 17:17-24 KJB

[02] Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman – 2 Kings 4:18-37 KJB

[03] A man and Elisha's Bones – 2 Kings 13:20-21 KJB

[04] The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected Army – Ezekiel 37:1-14 KJB

[05] Jesus raises the Widow of Nain's Son – Luke 7:11-17 KJB

[06] Jesus raises Jairus's Daughter – Matthew 9:18,19,23-26; Mark 5:22-24,35-43; Luke 8:41-42,49-56 KJB

[07] Jesus raises Lazarus – John 11:1-47 KJB

[08] Peter raises Tabitha [Dorcas] – Acts 9:36-42 KJB

[09] Paul raises Eutychus – Acts 20:9-12 KJB​

Where did they go when they died, and why, if they went to Heaven (or other), would Jesus (for He is the resurrection and the Life) return them back to their mortal state of fleshly existence? Did He take away all their knowledge of such transition, and if so, what was the purpose? Please provide the scriptures for your reasoning.

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

What a leap. Tell me when did you "find" this? Did you do a study? Did you use enough people in the study for it to be of significance? Did you study those who didn't have that attitude to see if there really was a difference....you see where I'm going here don't you. You are proving what I told the other fellow. You just can't help yourself; and, that is funny (it has nothing at all to do with our attitude toward Christ).

Could it be that you are lashing out?

 

[Alofa Atu]

Tell me when did you "find" this?

Years of experience, in actual real-world cases, like yourself. You are not the first to do as you have done, and you will not be the last before all is said and done. That is where I have "found" such. Now, whether you believe that testimony will be up to you.

Feel free to address the other questions asked.

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

Hmmmm, sounds pretty subjective to me, but ok. As for the other questions; easy enough, but I'll let Jesus answer rather than me trying to. In John.11:25-26 Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whoever liveth and Believeth in me shall never die." In other words, all your spamming about what goes on it the grave speaks of bones and dirt, not the "living soul" that the breath and body became upon creation (see Gen. 2:7). And so I await for His glorious appearing, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" and I do "even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus" (1Thess.4:14-18).

But if I enter into the Tribulation before that above happens, I will remember the words of our Lord in Matt.10:28 where He said “do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

You see one of the reasons I gave up arguing with Adventists many years ago is because of the simplicity of their mistakes. I have learned from "years of experience, in actual real-world cases, like yourself" (sound familiar) that they typically only want to win an argument, do not really want to dialog, and are closed minded to the possibility that they may actually learn something from a believer of another Christian faith. They absolutely will not be concerned with the possibility of misunderstanding anything that they have been taught otherwise in spite of the simplicity of their often repeated claims. But since you insisted I was only making accusations, I responded so others would see and know that these erroneous claims are quite easily refuted.

Once again, 2Tim. 3:16 teaches us that we need only scripture, and that it is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." That is the Bible alone is enough, no second revelation is anymore needed, no prophecy is further needed, and no Ellen G. White is needed to point us to anything we haven't already been given, because "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things." (See Heb. 1:1)

Now I'm sure you will get the last word in; I have never known an Adventist that could stand otherwise. And I will let that happen because I have already allowed myself to get into a never ending debate once again. And, because of the simplicity of refuting the heretical doctrine that the SDA church allowed a woman to impose on it in direct opposition to the word of God, I will leave it at that.

Once again blessings and goodbye; I am closed to this conversation from this point forward, so take your best shot, I don't mind. I don't need to defend the Bible and what it teaches any further because it "is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

 

[Alofa Atu]

Hmmmm, sounds pretty subjective to me, but ok.

Thanks for agreeing. Experience is not always subjective, though it can include subjective. For instance, the testimony of Jesus is not entirely subjective is it? If so, then Christianity has a huge problem.

As for the other questions; easy enough, but I'll let Jesus answer rather than me trying to. In John.11:25-26 Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whoever liveth and Believeth in me shall never die."

Jesus just mentioned 2 deaths in that verse.

[1] though he were dead (1st death)
[2] never die (2nd death)

So the text and Jesus' words proves what was given in all this thread. That a person who dies is "dead", yet if they are in Christ Jesus, "shall never die", being harmed of the second death (see Rev. 2:11).

So thank you for proving my point.

In other words, all your spamming about what goes on it the grave speaks of bones and dirt, not the "living soul" that the breath and body became upon creation (see Gen. 2:7).

Actually the very verse you cited proved the point. Thank you again for the text.

Rev_16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.​

That text should help open your eyes if you are willing to see.

And so I await for His glorious appearing, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" and I do "even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus" (1Thess.4:14-18).

Out of context. Those whom "God" (that is the Father), "bring with Him (Jesus):", is back to Heaven, not coming from Heaven. Read the context:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

God the Father brings all the dead in Christ and those translated alive back to Heaven "with" Jesus, who came as messenger from the Father to awaken the dead in Him, and to translate alive the living in Him.

1Pe_3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Zec_8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.​

Just as when The Son (OT) "brought" Israel out of Egypt (a symbol of the world) and took them back to God His Father, at Mt. Sinai, and into the Promised land, so will He do so again for all spiritual Israel.

If you die, you will "wait" "in the grave":

Job_17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.​

But if I enter into the Tribulation before that above happens, I will remember the words of our Lord in Matt.10:28 where He said “do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Indeed, for creatures cannot truly 'kill' (2nd death), only God can. The very verse just told you that. It is evidence against your position.

You see one of the reasons I gave up arguing with Adventists many years ago is because of the simplicity of their mistakes.

Actually, I know the real reason you left. You see, the Bible and SoP/ToJ tells me. It has nothing to do with so-called 'mistakes' of Seventh-day Adventists.